Honest Christian Conversations
A weekly podcast dealing with cultural and spiritual issues within the Christian faith.
Want to be a guest on Honest Christian Conversations? Send Ana Murby a message on PodMatch, here: https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/honestchristianconversations
Honest Christian Conversations
Spiritual Warfare and the Prodigal Child
What if your most fervent prayers seemed to go unanswered? In this heartfelt episode, we sit down with Jeff and Diana Seaman, pastors from Rocklin, California, to discuss their profound journey through the trials of having a prodigal child. Their story begins with the unexpected departure of their child from the faith, leading to an emotional upheaval that left them clinging to Christ for hope and strength. They share insights from their book, "Restore the Road Home: Encouragement for Parents of Prodigals," providing a beacon of support for parents facing similar heartaches. The Seamans remind us of the importance of community, prayer, and rejecting isolation in times of shame and despair.
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Jeff and Diana Seaman are wonderful people going through a dark season of life. At the height of their spiritual career at church, one of their children shared that they were stepping away from the faith. Their world was shook to the core and through this new season of life, they have found hope and endurance in Christ. If you have a child who has stepped away from the faith, or you are the prodigal, you will love this episode and be so encouraged by their story. Be sure to share this episode with family and friends so they too can be blessed by the contents of this episode. Thank you, guys, for joining me on the podcast today. I'm very excited to have you for joining me on the podcast today. I'm very excited to have you, jeff and Diana, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us Nice to be here.
Speaker 1:Yes, so we have an awesome connection because we're both from the same area. You guys are currently pastoring a church in Rockland, California. I'm very familiar with that area. In fact, I think I've been to the church way before you started pastoring. But I have been to the church before I remember and I'm just very familiar with that area. It's where I lived before I moved to Connecticut, so that was one of the main reasons why I wanted to have you guys on the podcast. It's like we have something in common that's so cool.
Speaker 2:Northern California, I it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely. Now that I live in Connecticut and have to go through all the humidity we have here, I appreciate the dry heat more than I did when I lived there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, although we were just complaining this morning about our sinuses and everything being so dried up from the heat and not being able to sleep because of that.
Speaker 1:So I guess I never had allergies until I moved to Connecticut. Then I started getting allergies. I was like this is so crazy. I was the only one in my family who never had them and then moved here and I'm still occasionally certain times of year. I'll get it mostly spring now, but it used to be really bad.
Speaker 2:Oh, why did I?
Speaker 1:move here. The other reason why I wanted to have you guys on is because your story resonates a lot with what I'm going through with my eldest, and that is having a prodigal child. So tell us what is the name of your book and why did you write it.
Speaker 2:So the name of the book is called Restore the Road Home Encouragement for Parents of Prodigals. We wrote it because, you know, in 2016, we had all three of our children going into ministry. I mean, they were, they loved the Lord, they were, they were to admissions trips, they were doing all the things. We really felt like we've cracked the code. Like this, we've got it Christian parenting. We got it down pat and one day, out of the blue, one of our children came over and told us that they were no longer going to follow Christ. It was absolutely like it knocked us to the ground. We had no idea anything like that would ever, ever happen to us. And I mean slowly, over months of thinking that this was just a temporary thing, it was caused by the stress of getting ready to graduate and different things like that. It actually seemed to be more lasting, longer than we thought.
Speaker 2:Then we started meeting so many other families that they just had the same thing happen and they didn't know what to do. They didn't know. Do we shun them? Do we argue with them? Every time we're in the room with them, what do we do? Then there was kind of this isolation of, well, nobody can know. Nobody can know that our family's not perfect. Nobody can know that we did have this perfect family but now we don't anymore, so to speak. One night we went to bed and we were just angry, angry at the enemy, angry at isolating parents because they had a prodigal, angry at the shame parents were feeling, angry at the hopelessness parents were feeling. We kind of gathered a group of our friends together and said, look, we can't do everything, but what we can do is we can pray, we can join together, we can pray for one another Over the years of that little group starting and then us just kind of learning how to navigate this.
Speaker 2:Over the years We've just talked and being in ministry and he worked for K-Love Radio for 15 years and as a pastor, taking phone calls from across the world, I'm hearing the same story over and over again my child's walked away from their faith. I feel like a total failure. I don't want anyone to know or I won't have anything to do with them now, I won't let them in the house or all these things. So we just decided to write a book about our experience. We're not perfect, we're not. We don't know it all. But we thought, if what we do know and what we have learned can help other parents going through the same thing, then let's write it down and get it out there. So that's our story.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful. It's definitely especially nowadays with the way culture's going. It's a very relevant book. Unfortunately, I mean I'm going through it right now with my oldest. She's 17. She doesn't live with me. She hasn't lived with me since she was probably about 14. She has lived with her dad for a year and then she came back to live with me. She went to go live with my dad and my stepmom in Tennessee. That's when she went through this.
Speaker 1:I don't want to be a Christian anymore. I want to live with my grandma in California. It's been hard to see how she's doing what she's doing, the transformation she's making. It's been hard on me doing what she's doing, the transformation she's making. It's been hard on me, but I have the peace that passes all understanding. I have that and I know that God's got her and he's going to take care of her.
Speaker 1:It's great that you guys wrote a book that has that encouragement. It's not like you guys are writing it as these scholars who have never been through this and they just know these things because they took the classes you guys have been there, done that are still going through it and you're still strong and you're able to help and show people that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Even their child is still going through it. So I'm very thankful that you wrote this book. As soon as I read your profile on Podmatch I was like, yes, I have to have them on. I can totally relate. I need their guidance and wisdom. So how did you two persevere through the discouragement that you felt, and did it mess with your marriage, affect it in a good or a bad way?
Speaker 3:Well, what helped us really get through it is we realized that we're not alone. We immediately started a prayer group called Battle Cry. We got about seven, eight families together and every Wednesday night we started just sharing what's on our heart and sharing the pain we feel, the isolation we feel and sometimes the shame. We built a brigade, almost a big one. We were going it alone for a while and we said let's get people around us. That's where we really found encouragement. It's where we found strength. It's where we found it's okay to feel these feelings. We normalized it together.
Speaker 3:It actually even strengthened all of our all the couples in there, all of our marriage were now getting stronger. We're now on the same page and we had one common goal that was to fight for our children. And so that's how we've had some people ask has it affected your marriage? It actually made us stronger because now we have a common goal to go after. Every morning when we pray, we're always going after prayer for our children and other people's kids. It's actually even made it even stronger. But we do know couples that it's divided them. They say well, if you would have been so hard on them, she would never walk away from faith, and so when we meet with couples, we try to get them on the same page, and that's been a sweet spot for a lot of the couples that we've been working with.
Speaker 2:Right that you have a common enemy that you're going after. You're not going after each other, that you're banding together to go after your common enemy. That's the thief who comes to kill, steal and destroy and we talk about that in the book. That it can divide, it can divide husband and wife, but we talk about don't let it, because you're on the same page here. You're doing this together. You do have an enemy, but it's not each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's exactly what Satan wants. He's trying to break down the family unit because if he can do that, then you know, then we're useless, especially because you guys were pastors, you're pastors. So if he can do that to your family and you can tear it apart, that's going to mess with the gospel being preached. That's going to make people do the whole. See, I knew church was bad. Look at these people. That's what Satan wants. So it's great that you guys didn't go down that road and that you have a ministry that is helping others not go down that road, because I mean, from the very beginning, Adam and Eve were blaming each other for what happened instead of taking ownership for their part in it. It's so easy just to blame anybody for anything. My kids are constantly blaming each other for things. It's like I saw what you did. Just own it and move on. Adults are just like kids grown up. It's like we do the same thing.
Speaker 3:It's so in our nature.
Speaker 1:It's sinful nature DNA yes, it's terrible. So how can a parent of a prodigal unconditionally love their child when they see the choices they're making, they know they're wrong, they don't condone, they don't affirm them. How are they supposed to love unconditionally through that?
Speaker 3:I think getting your eyes on the actual battle, that really does help. We love the quote to scripture we wrestle not against flesh and blood, and that's a true statement. And you watch your children walk away and you know they have truth inside their heart already. And I think sometimes we've got to be able to keep the spiritual eyes on the right target. The enemy loves just to come, especially if you're in ministry, loves to put a target on your children, and so I think when we go to war we even have a whole chapter on spiritual warfare and we stay in that realm we realize that if you look at your son or your daughter, there's something that's going after them. It may be, you know, the rebellious spirit. It may be the you know the hurt or wounds spirit that's in their life. We know that's what's behind that.
Speaker 3:So we try to keep our mind focused constantly and in our prayer times when we meet with other couples, we're always this is where the battle is. It's not them, it's the spirit that's working behind that, and that's probably the one for new believers. That might be hard for them to understand, that they have been discipled. But I think as we get a group together, the more. You have more support. You remind each other hey, remember the enemy's trying to work here. So let's keep our focus where our prayers need to be focused where. Remember your position in Christ. And so that's what we've really worked hard and that's why we really in the book. We felt a lot of parents don't know how to do that. What they do is they just take it out on their kids and they're just like well, now you're hurting me. Well, no, this is the enemy actually attacking. So in our book we wrote a whole bunch about the strategies of our enemy and warfare, but also our position in Christ and having a discerning eye to see what's really going on.
Speaker 2:Well, and that discernment comes. You have to be led by the Holy Spirit. You really really do. It's a tightrope walk and the only way you can navigate that tightrope and get your next step on each correct spot is if you're being led by the Holy Spirit. I mean we're constantly asking the Holy Spirit, you know, lead us in our interactions with our children.
Speaker 2:I mean, there have been times when I have felt the Holy Spirit. I wanted to go. You know, when our child first came to us and said you know, I'm no longer going to be a Christian, my first reaction was game on, game on arm, wrestle you right now, you know. And the Holy Spirit just say stand down. No, you're not going to do that, let me work. And that's hard to do, it's hard to keep your mouth shut. But then there have been times when I felt the Holy Spirit say all right, I want you to speak, I want you to share this with your child. And that's also scary because I've kind of been like oh well, I was ready to do that, you know, a couple of years ago, when you told me to stand. Now I'm, you know, now you're having me do it, and so we really are.
Speaker 2:Try to be led by the Holy Spirit, and that is that is staying in that. You know when Jesus said remain in me and you will bear much fruit. When we're just remaining in him and spending time with him, we learn to hear the Holy Spirit's voice. When we know we're following the Holy Spirit and he's saying don't, don't say anything about this right now, you can trust that. And then when he's saying I want you to be really brave and confront this right now, you can do it, you can speak up, knowing that it's in his timing, and that's really important. It's a hard thing to learn because our flesh either wants to go after them or our flesh wants to coddle and pacify them, and we just have to be led by the Holy Spirit to know exactly what to do in every moment. Somebody says we want to control it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we want to be the parents we got to. Let the Holy Spirit do in every moment.
Speaker 2:Somebody says we want to control it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we want to be the parents we got to let the Holy Spirit work in their life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, control was hard for me. I think the reason why it's been easier for me, in that I have such peace right now, is because my daughter hasn't really lived with me since she was 12. She wanted to go live with her dad when he lived in California. So that was hard for me. I didn't want to let her go because he's not the greatest person for her to be around. He's very toxic the way he talks to her. I knew it wasn't a good idea. Her reasons for leaving were terrible. She had no real reason to leave. So I was digging my heels in and telling God no, I don't want her to go. And it was inevitable that she was going to go. I needed to let go of how I felt about it. I had to physically let her go. I prayed and I said if I do this, you have to promise me that you are going to take care of her, because I'm no longer going to be able to. And I said I'm going to trust you that if you're telling me to let her go, that that means that you have your hand on her for however long she's gone.
Speaker 1:From that moment on, I just kind of you know took a backseat as mom, because when she came back to me a year later her dad sent her back home and that was right before COVID. So then she was with us during the COVID lockdown and everything, but I don't remember if it was that same year or whatever, but something happened and she ended up. It was a big issue within our family and she ended up having to move to Tennessee to go live with my parents. It made it a little easier to send her down there, one because it was absolutely necessary to do so, but also just because I had already let her go and given her to God. Plus, my dad and my stepmom are very godly people and I trusted that they were going to take care of her. They did the best they could. They realized they made some mistakes. You know. They didn't know what kind of music she was listening to and that kind of stuff, you know, and all of that in high school and everything. It just kind of set her off and she's a very strong-willed child and wants to do what she wants to do. She knew if she went to go live with her grandma in California her paternal grandma she'd get to do that and that's exactly where she is now that's exactly what she's doing.
Speaker 1:We still have connection, which is great, but it's hard on me because I've been in this. Do I just be a friend and occasionally give her some friendly godly advice? Because if I try to bring up God she gets mad and she says don't bring that up. But then there's other times where she'll call me mommy instead of my name or whatever you know, and she's very sweet to me. So it's like I don't know I'm in this weird position because she's still 17.
Speaker 1:She's still technically a child but with everything that went through I had to give up my parental rights to her. So technically I'm not legally her parent and she'll say that to me occasionally. But then I remind her. That's why you know that I love you is because I'm still caring about you. I'm still here for you. If you need me, I'm here. You know where to find me. I always make sure I tell her that she knows all the things about God. She knows. So it's like I don't tell her all the time and it's hard and she's so much an adult. So I mean it's great that you guys have adult experience. I will probably be reading your book because I don't know if I'm going to have to deal with that avenue.
Speaker 2:Well and you kind of raise a valid point about there are. You know, every parent's situation is so very different and every child is so very different. And we have the parable of the prodigal son. But it's connected to two other parables, the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the lost coin, one of the things we talk about in the book. And this goes back to really being led by the Holy Spirit. The person takes different actions in each parable. So in the parable of the lost sheep, the shepherd leaves the 99 and stops at nothing going after to look for that sheep. In the parable of the lost coin, the woman stays in her home but searches and sweeps and looks under everything. But then in the parable of the lost son, the father just lets him go, just lets him go and waits and waits and waits.
Speaker 2:When you have something happen with your child, you really do have to let the Holy Spirit say it's time to go after you pull out all the stops in going after your child, or maybe this is a time when you just let go and that child needs to go through what that child needs to go through to ultimately come back. We kind of have said before. If it's going to take 10 steps in the wrong direction for our child to come back to Christ and we help push them from step eight to step nine even if that was, you know, we didn't do anything bad, but something we did help Then we're actually pushing them in the correct direction, even though we may not do that with our natural eyes.
Speaker 3:I think it's important that we remember sometimes, in those seasons where you know we could go argue or we could try to, you know, get in their face, we got to remember that your best posture is going to be your prayer. It has more power to outlive you, um, and you know, and within your situation, when your daughter's a different location, I mean, the holy spirit is still working. That's what we got to go back and remember. He's still working, he still loves, he still pursues. All those things are powered because we're praying for those situations and we're on our knees and we're going after, we're fasting for situations.
Speaker 3:If we identify a stronghold or something like that. That's a sweet place, like having peace about knowing God's got this. I can mess it up, I can come and or I can trust the power of the Holy Spirit in working through our prayers and that's really a nice sweet spot, knowing the power of prayer that's going to outlive you in wherever they're at. You know our daughter lives down in LA and so even though we're not there, the loving God, the loving Father, is still working. Even when our daughter can't see us and stuff like that, it's like, okay, drop those coals on her head.
Speaker 1:How long has she been a prodigal, if you don't mind me asking.
Speaker 3:Since 2016. Yeah, 2016. Hello yeah, she Since 2016. Yeah, 2016. Hello yeah, she was married to a minister, a music pastor, and the day we took over this church is when she walked away from her faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's been a long time. Yeah, that's one of the things that I think some parents don't understand is that it might not be a quick road. Yeah, it could be a lifetime, it could be a month, it could be years. Who even knows? Only God knows. I know in my own personal case, because I was a prodigal as well. It was probably about maybe three, four years for me. I mean, I don't know about my daughter, but you know, yeah, Well, we have a whole chapter in the book on stamina.
Speaker 3:Yeah, state of course.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because again, in the beginning we thought, okay, this is this temporary thing. It wasn't a temporary thing and that kind of threw us. Like, after maybe I don't know two, three years, you're like God, are you listening to my prayers? Are you hearing me? And it's important Actually I was just reading in Jeremiah where God says to Jeremiah if you get weary running with men, how are you going to run with horses?
Speaker 2:And I've actually kind of been dwelling on that scripture a lot the last few days, Okay, Lord. And then asking the Lord, help me, increase my stamina so I can take the hits, so I can keep going. That's a really important thing is just staying the course, and it's hard to stay the course when you don't see the result that you want. And we talk about that too. We talk about looking for God's hand moving in other ways. When I pray something small and I see the Lord just so immediately answer that prayer, I go okay, these prayers that I'm praying that I have not seen him answer for six, seven, eight years, that I so desperately want him to answer, he's not ignoring them, it's just not his timing yet.
Speaker 3:I'm reminded because what helps me is I had a very abusive father in my life and I prayed for him for 18 years to come to know Christ. There are times where I got discouraged but I just kept praying, kept praying and kept depositing those love accounts. Make sure I had a good love account about my father, even though he was a good man. But I remember he got leukemia and for nine years they gave him only six months to live but he lived nine years with leukemia and there came a time where my dad called me up, says I want your Jesus. Will you lead me to your Jesus?
Speaker 3:That is a rich bank account for me now, knowing that God is faithful and if I stay the course and I continue to remember my prayers, outlive me.
Speaker 3:My prayers are doing the work when I'm not even around him. That my daughter's the same way, my son's the same way, that God is hearing my prayers and I think we like things so quickly, but sometimes God allows that journey. So my dad said this after I led him to Christ. That night in my living room he says I think the Lord allowed me to go through the season of leukemia because I had a hardened, rebellious heart and it was his love that allowed me to live this long so that I would surrender to him. He knew that I was praying for him and so that's the same. That's a bank account that I have with God now knowing that I can pray for my kids, knowing it may be an 18 year journey, but I know that he hears me and he loves me. And the Bible says we can have confidence. Like you said, you have deep peace, because God is a loving and merciful God and he's the God that's waiting outside that front door, waiting to run to the prodigal.
Speaker 2:Well, and that peace that passes understanding. You know that either, we don't have understanding of what's going on, but we can still have peace. The very first night that we gathered parents together to pray, when we finished, one of the dads in the group said nothing's changed, like nothing has changed in the natural. But I feel so good, I have so much peace. There's a peace that comes with just knowing God is working. And Jeff's dad? He passed away three months later. So it was like God was just working through that whole time and taking him to that end of his rope, that pig pen as the prodigal was in, to finally come back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, prayer doesn't have an expiration date. I think some people don't remember that. They don't remember their own journeys either. I think, if you think about it and you look back on your life, how long did God have to wait for you to come back to Him, or to come to Him at all? I mean, that's who we're supposed to emulate. Is God. He's perfect. We aren't. I get that. So it's going to be a struggle, but we have to learn how to have some stamina, as you guys were talking about, because if it doesn't happen in a year or whatever, what are you going to do? You're going to just give up? You can't give up. Your child should be worth more than that to you. It should be worth your time and effort.
Speaker 1:There's times where I feel I don't pray enough for her, and then there's times where I'm trying constantly to pray. More often, her siblings are praying for her. Her eight-year-old sibling and her 12-year-old sibling do a lot of praying for her and you know, it's like we're constantly praying. They remind me sometimes that I need to pray, because I don't pray nearly as often. I don't know if it's just because it escapes my mind or because I know God's got this, so I'm like I don't need to pray, which is wrong thinking I know, but I think that's probably where my brain is is I already know God's doing this? I don't want to keep bugging him about something he already knows and he's working on, but he calls us to pray to him. We are his children. He wants to hear our voice. So that is a conviction I need to work on.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes in the journey that's so long, you know, if you look at World War II, there was a long journey.
Speaker 3:Wars are not won, you know, for the heart of people and sometimes we're fighting. Sometimes in the prayer times you may feel a real urgency to pray for your daughter on a certain issue and miles away, but there could be a little battle that needs to be won in the spiritual realms to bring her heart a little bit more closer. And so again, looking at the idea of war and for the hearts of people, there may be a lot of strongholds or bitterness or hurts or wounds in these people's lives that need to be won in the spiritual realm first and to soften their heart. Again. One of the things that helps me knowing my kids are away. I get to know that God hears me and he's putting me inside the battle with a discerning heart, to know how to pray, to pray against rebellion, to pray against identity. We can fight those battles. Those are not won overnight. Those are strongholds sometimes that need to be bathed in prayer for months.
Speaker 2:Well, and going back to the idea of war, one of the things we talk about in the book is that soldiers didn't actually stay in the trenches for very long, because that's hard work. Maybe they were there for seven days max and then they would pull them back to do simpler things so that they didn't wear out. And there's a real weariness that comes. And there was one night that we were gathered with families to pray and there was one woman who she was weary, and the Holy Spirit just spoke to Jeff and he went up to her and said you're just going to fall back tonight, you just sit here and you enjoy the worship music. We're all going to pray for your child and she just started crying because she was tired. And there's times when you're just tired and that's the beauty of having a group around you praying with you is you can know. You know what. I am going to take a little rest because I'm weary right now and you know that there are others battling for you, that they're in the trenches for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we always call that where's your brigade? You know, sometimes people are just fighting all by themselves and that is such a holy weary and at the end of me, if we believe in that enemy, he's going to defeat you by discouragement. But when you got a brigade of, you know, 10 people with you, you can call them up 2 o'clock in the morning and say man, I just got news my daughter's rebelling right now and this happened to her life and I'm weary, and you got all those people going to their knees, you know. So we've had that. We've had people call up. My daughter was just raped. Will you guys pray? And so we just go after it, you know. And so one of the things about that journey it's just make sure you have a brigade, a group of people that are going to the same storms of life. That really does help.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, this has been a very exciting conversation, very enlightening and encouraging. I have one more question for you. You've already given us a lot of encouragement and stuff to chew on, but if you could leave parents of prodigals with one more wisdom nugget, what would you?
Speaker 2:give them. I would say and I'm saying this to me too, because I need to say it God is worthy of our trust. He really is. He is worthy of us putting our faith in him. And when we are discouraged, tired, weary, when we have been praying so hard and what we're seeing in the natural is actually the opposite of what we've been praying for, don't quit. Keep trusting him. Keep trusting him because he is faithful and he's worthy of our trust.
Speaker 3:I would say in my part, where I've been doing a lot lately, when I do feel discouraged or you know, and it's a long journey, I go back to the place of dwelling.
Speaker 3:I've got to dwell with God's presence and find those places where he is my refuge and he comforts my broken heart.
Speaker 3:You know, because, as a prodigal, watching your daughter and your son walk away, there's hurts there, there's wounds there, and when we learn and practice the presence of dwelling with God, he refreshes you for another day and we need that. And so dwelling, making it a practice of dwelling in God's presence and his word, or just worship, the posture of just surrendering there as a parent that may get discouraged, or, and you may find that God just wants you to sit in his presence, maybe you're not going to have to go battle today. Maybe he just wants to refresh your spirit, which builds your faith, which builds your trust in him, and it strengthens your posture. I think posture is one of the greatest things that God wants to deal with is our posture before him. He says come boldly before the throne of grace, that you may find mercy. Sometimes you may need that, even just in the battle, as your children are just making you mad and making you discouraged. He says just come dwell, just sit in my presence and let me refresh you.
Speaker 1:Amen. Thank you, guys, so much for coming on the podcast today and talking with us. I know this has been encouraging to my heart and I can guarantee there's people listening who are also going to be encouraged by what you have to say. Keep fighting the good fight. Who knows what comes? Thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us. We'll be praying for your daughter. Yes, we will Thank you. I appreciate it.
