Honest Christian Conversations
A weekly podcast dealing with cultural and spiritual issues within the Christian faith.
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Honest Christian Conversations
Spreading Faith in Cambodia: A Story of Redemption and Evangelism
What happens when someone battles the depths of addiction and emerges as a beacon of faith? Join us as we uncover the compelling story of Pastor Matthew Karchner, who transformed from a life ensnared by homosexuality and addiction to becoming a passionate missionary in Cambodia. Growing up in rural Pennsylvania, Matthew faced the internal turmoil of same-sex attraction, leading to years of emotional and spiritual strife. It wasn’t until a heartfelt letter to his parents, who responded with unwavering Biblical truths that he found the courage to change his path.
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Pastor Matthew's Website:
http://exgaywitness.com/
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Pastor Matthew Karchner has a very powerful story to tell about his redemption from a life of homosexuality. He is now a dedicated missionary pastor in Cambodia. Through his many years in that alternative lifestyle, he has learned some things and he is here to share with us his wisdom, heart and the truth of God's Word. This episode is a bit longer than the others and might be sensitive for some people, but it is very necessary with the trajectory of today's social climate. If you have a heart for people living this alternative lifestyle, you need to stay tuned for this episode. Be sure to share this episode with family and friends so they too can be blessed by the contents of this episode. Thank you, pastor Matthew, for coming on today and sharing your story. It's a very impactful story and I'm very excited to hear you talk about it, so go ahead and start by sharing your testimony with us.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you so much for having me start by sharing your testimony with us. Okay, thank you so much for having me. I'm from rural Pennsylvania, middle of Pennsylvania, about three hours from Pittsburgh, four hours from Philadelphia, very historically kind of a coal mining town and pretty conservative folks there. I was born in 78. I'm from a Christian family so my mom's side of the family were primarily believers and especially my grandpa on my mom's side was kind of the rock of the family. Spiritually speaking. I gave my life to Christ at seven years old. I remember praying the sinner's prayer on my knees and I believe that I genuinely meant it.
Speaker 2:But at 12 years old the temptation toward the boys came when puberty hit. The boys typically liked the girls in the class and I remember coming back after summer break and it seemed like things had changed and some of the voices had deepened of the boys and mine hadn't changed. I was kind of by nature meek and gentle compared to the other boys and not very confrontational. At that point when puberty hit, I felt attracted to the boys and not the girls, and so that was my deep, dark secret for quite a while. Through those early years I cried myself to sleep many nights, prayed the Lord would take that temptation away. It wasn't easy. It wasn't a case of I think I'll choose this strange and bizarre path over my natural attraction to girls. I really didn't have one. It was an absence of a sexual attraction that the other boys had toward the opposite sex, and so I prayed the Lord would take that temptation away. It didn't go away.
Speaker 2:Time passed and those teen years and the hormones raging, I acted on it, baby steps and bigger steps, looking at pictures, eventually looking at videos that I shouldn't look at, and sins never satisfied. I continued to feed that sinful desire and it began to become more and more of who. I felt that I was over time, but the big steps didn't really happen until I moved to Pittsburgh to go to University of Pittsburgh and I was 19 at the time, moved to the city, the closest city. Nobody knew me there for the most part. I started drinking, going out and acted on those things that I had seen in videos and pictures and the things that I felt that I never had the guts to do. But with alcohol and eventually drugs, I did have the guts to do them. So it felt day one, day, two, day, three months, two, month three it felt like that sense of wow, I can finally be who I am quote, unquote and just a sense of what I call now kind of counterfeit freedom. It really felt like I'm finally living authentically, genuinely me.
Speaker 2:And then, about five or six years into that life, after the glamour and the glitz had passed and the club scene and everything had gotten old, friends were committing suicides, overdosing One had HIV, another overdose kind of unusual circumstances. We weren't sure what happened, just horrendously horrible things were happening, kind of all around me. I was addicted severely myself to alcohol and drugs and a laundry list of things, pornography and other things, cigarettes. The Lord brought me to my knees through some really tough stuff. Eventually I wrote a letter to my parents and told them that I was living this life and tried to force them to accept me. I really respect them now because they stood on God's Word and they said we love you and that doesn't change. But just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean that we tear pages out of God's Word or we deny the Lord and embrace you. It doesn't work like that. We accept the Bible as God's Word in its entirety and the authority of Scripture over all things, over all matters and that's it. And so you must repent. This is a call to repentance. So initially, like the first conversations with them, it wasn't hard line, it wasn't like repent now. It was more of kind of band-aiding the bleed because they didn't know. I mean, I had been out in the life for so many years they didn't know at that time when I'm finally telling them if I was about to jump off a building or something. They needed to really comfort me at first, kind of initially. And then a few weeks later I guess about two weeks later my dad called for that next kind of level talk Like listen, here's what the Bible says. It was kind of an Abraham to Isaac type of test for them where they had to choose the Lord over their only son. They didn't have any other kids. They had big hopes and dreams for me and they had raised me in the church.
Speaker 2:I was in the youth group and in church Sunday morning, sunday evening, wednesday evening, typically Friday or Saturday if there was a youth function. I was memorizing scripture. I was in the Christian school next to the church. My dad was an elder and treasurer. My parents were leaders in the youth group. I mean, I couldn't have been more churched? That's a question.
Speaker 2:I express that for one reason because I get asked that from parents now, like what could they have done differently? You know what I mean. Like they must have done something wrong and it's like no, and my dad was very masculine. He was very wanted to have me out with a gun in my hand climbing up a mountain and doing rugged stuff. There was nothing where my dad had fallen short in my opinion. Sometimes I didn't relate to him or the other men.
Speaker 2:Genuine kind of manly, let's say anger competition for like manly competition, like sporting event kind of competition or king of the hill style stuff that happens when you're in the formative years and you know 10, 10, 11, 12 years old, that's happening in the neighborhood and baseball and different things. Stuff like that was very intimidating for me. I felt like I'm not, I can't compete with that, like I don't relate to that, I don't want to be the top dog. And then you know what I mean Like I wanted to do something. I don't know if I want to say creative, but I wanted to do something on my own or whatever. So I kind of I kind of gravitated toward the girls and that was kind of you talk about what choices did you make early in life. Maybe that was one where I kind of gravitated and related more to the girls and started to get into what clothing was coming out next season and that sort of stuff and Janet Jackson and things like that. So my identity, my kind of self-created identity, kind of became more like a girl. I never wanted to transition to look like a girl or have any surgeries or anything like that, but definitely identified as gay. So the wanted to transition to look like a girl or have any surgeries or anything like that, but definitely identified as gay.
Speaker 2:So the Lord brought me to my knees in repentance through some really tough stuff. When I, like I said, got severely addicted, my parents went to war in prayer and fasting for me. The pastor that had dedicated me as a baby was still our kind of family pastor. They called him in times of crisis, just like they always did in our family. He came out and read my coming out letter which I wrote to them. Didn't have the guts to tell them in person, but I wrote it in a letter and so he read it with a tear running down his face. My dad said, and before he left the house that day he turned around at the door my dad said and pointed back at them and said don't look for this thing to be over anytime soon. And they said as difficult as that was to hear my parents say now we're so thankful he told us the truth, because nowadays in church everybody wants to hear a positive, encouraging message and some kind of magical, miracle kind of thing.
Speaker 2:And this is a real demonic spiritual war and I was really in the thick of it and I was really self-deceived. I was deceived. And this is a real demonic spiritual war and I was really in the thick of it and I was really self-deceived. I was deceived. The heart is deceitful, above all things, and desperately wicked. The Bible says we're fallen creations ever since the Lord created Adam and Eve and we sinned against Him. Humanity, the nature of man is to sin, so we're corrupted to the core and spiritually and morally bankrupt. We can't trust our feelings as any kind of gauge or any kind of benchmark for what's right or what our identity is or anything like that. So we have to deny ourself and follow the Lord Jesus Christ according to His Word, the Bible, the inspired and inerrant, timeless Word of God. That never, ever changes. I know that now.
Speaker 2:But at the time time I was very much deceived and so my parents went towards prayer and fasting for me. My mom even said at the time we prayed at times that the Lord would allow things to get worse before it got better, because they knew the reality of life, that if things were happy-go-lucky for me and I lived a relatively problem-free life, I would probably never repent. It would be better for me to have kind of a come-to-the-end-of-myself moment, kind of crash my plane, if you will, in the gay life in order to be able to look up and acknowledge my need for a savior. That happened through addiction and through watching, like I said, the horror stories happening around me of friends getting HIV and suicides and overdoses and all that and just realizing that the lies that I had believed coming into the gay life early on, were not coming true. People said you're tall, you'll be a supermodel, you'll be a male model someday, and all this stuff and none of it ever panned out. I'm there left with holding the bag, ever panned out on their left with holding the bag. I mean I was nearly bankrupt financially for one thing. I had a full-time, good job and I just squandered everything. I was very much the prodigal son, and so the Lord brought me to my knees in repentance, largely through the fear of God. I'd like to say it was through the love of God. We like to hear that kind of message, but it was in my case. It was the reminders that the Lord's coming back in judgment. I knew I wasn't ready. 9-11 happened when I was out there. I remember turning on the TV out of a drunken stupor, seeing the Twin Towers coming down and just knowing our nation, once founded on Christian principles, has turned our back on. The Lord kicked Him out of the schools and here we are. We have school shootings. Now there's 9-11, the Lord's allowing judgment to come on this nation. What if I'm next? I'm not ready to meet him.
Speaker 2:Another thing I like to bring up is kind of a good case in point. Gives a good visual. I was working in Pittsburgh for a PNC bank at the time and I would take a lunch break and walk down the street to McDonald's or Subway or something like that. And I walked down the street one day and walked into a McDonald's and there were many people lunch hour on the streets of Pittsburgh at the time, like hundreds of people, and this guy walked into McDonald's behind me, chose me out of everybody and stood behind me in line and kind of like with his arms crossed and tapped me on the shoulder and said if you died today, where would you go? And I thought, okay, so I'm about three hours from my hometown. This guy doesn't know me from anyone, unless there's some really high level conspiracy theory.
Speaker 2:My parents are paying people to come and track me down.
Speaker 2:This has to be the God that I thought I left a long time ago. You know what I mean. Why would he care about me? I'm gay, I'm in the exception category, that can't be saved, that can't get home. The gospel's not for me. I'm a lost cause. It's for you guys. Now, that wasn't anything that I would ever have verbally expressed to anyone at the time, but that was where I was. I'm the exception to the rule. The Bible applies to you folks back in Clearfield who have a church, family and all that stuff. You guys can do it, but I don't know how to reconcile what I feel with God's Word. I would like to say I repented that day, but many things like that had to happen, maybe about six months apart, three months apart, a year apart until the Lord brought me to my knees and repented. Okay, I'm going to be another quiet funeral, like so many of my friends, if I don't repent.
Speaker 2:I got on my knees. It was May 28th 2010. At the bed in my apartment in Pittsburgh, I was a full-throttle shipwreck. I got on my knees and repented, prayed the sinner's prayer that I knew as a child, that I remembered as a child Please come in. Dear Lord Jesus, please come into my heart and save me from my sins. Give me new life in you. In Jesus' name, I pray Amen. I prayed that prayer and then I got up and looked at myself in the mirror. It was one of those moments where somebody comes out of a cave and they haven't lived in society or real life and they don't know how to act or who they were or what happened or what's going on now or what they should do next. I just felt like the Lord had washed me clean in the blood and I knew I was forgiven. But who am I now? I've been in this life like my whole life revolved around homosexuality and alcoholism and drugs and everything. Everything that I did I mean Satan had me like in a death grip.
Speaker 2:Now what the Lord led to the nearest church it was about two blocks away, same denomination as I grew up in. That was a good match at the time. It was pretty open to me, coming out of an unusual lifestyle and a lot of opportunities to plug into ministry there and understand my identity in Christ, my gifts and what the Lord's created me to do and wants me to do. I got into ushering and youth ministry there and sharing my testimony in front of the church and a lot of different things, kind of a high crime area, helping out with at-risk what they call it at-risk youth group type ministry, and sharing the gospel with prostitutes in the dog park, just one-on-one, as the Lord led Drug folks that were on, you know, had drug problems and were waiting in line to get into the homeless shelter in the area where I lived. It was kind of a rough neck of the woods. The Lord led me really soon you know, kind of day one to start learning how to share my testimony and learning how to share the basic gospel message and really called me to evangelism kind of out the gate, and so, praise the Lord, that was 2010.
Speaker 2:I knew that I was called to the mission field. I've always been drawn to foreign food and languages and people and anything different. But that church had missions partnerships with Cambodia. It was just starting up with many different countries around the world, but the Cambodia partnership was just starting up, probably not too long after I got into that church, maybe the first six months.
Speaker 2:We were in the service that day and the pastor said if anybody's interested in the Cambodia partnership that we're putting together now, go downstairs at 10 o'clock and listen to the information session, so it's like where's Cambodia?
Speaker 2:I don't even know if I can find it on the map, but I went downstairs just being interested in missions in general. I just knew the Lord's leading me to see what's going on with this. So I go downstairs and sit in the back row and it was the leader of the mission and he had a video there in a very, very brief kind of like he had been to Cambodia and had scouted and was kind of like putting together very initial preliminary thoughts about what the partnership might look like and how we could help out the church over there and that sort of thing. And there wasn't anything really high impact spiritually about it. It was just a video of him going through the capital city in a tuk-tuk, the things with the motorbike in the front and a little carriage in the back. I started crying and crying and the tears were rolling and I could not stop.
Speaker 2:This is the Lord, because there's nothing moving about anything that's being said and so I just knew it wasn't like I was following an emotional high, it was just like this is beyond doubt. I know this is for me, so I got into it and started going to the meetings, and then we scheduled our first mission over to Cambodia.
Speaker 2:Came here three times in a matter of I guess it was three years the last trip. I led the trip and was head of the mission. At the end there there were two doctors that were scouting for medical mission over here. It was just a blessing to have the relationships of the people in different cultures. Everything was so exciting to me. It was just like I came alive in who I really am versus who the enemy, who Satan, deceived me to think I was in my old life.
Speaker 2:I worked for PNC Bank for almost 15 years. I started with them in 2000, and then about five years passed, so that's 2010. I know that I'm called to the mission field. I've just been freshly cleaned, washed down in the blood and cleaned up, and the Lord has a plan for my life. But I'm still there at the bank. I'm still at PNC. About five years later it's 2015.
Speaker 2:The department that I was in, which is the legal department, I had a different manager from before. That department had really championed the gay and lesbian agenda under the banner of diversity and inclusion. So it sounds amazing at the onset. You kind of delve into it and the idea is that you're going to champion and applaud the homosexual agenda and lifestyle and say that's a good life to live and everybody should follow that and we're going to promote people of that lifestyle and so on. I couldn't do that with a clear conscience. When that came in and became a significant part of my job responsibilities, I had already been called into my manager's office for sharing the gospel in the workplace because after the Lord had done so much work in my life, I couldn't help it. I really had to share. Nothing was important anymore except getting the gospel out. So I'd already been identified very much as somebody who is here to please the Lord above all else. So when that happened I went to my boss and said I can't support this from a communication standpoint.
Speaker 2:I was the one in charge of putting the stuff on the website, the departmental website of all what was going on. So a lot of it had to do with the LGBT agenda. He said we'll try to swap out your responsibility with somebody else's. But at the end of it all, the final meeting with him was kind of like him saying to me diversity is one of PNC's core values and if you're not aligned with it, maybe this isn't the place for you. I left and I walked out and I was on the 20th floor of a skyscraper in Pittsburgh at the time and went down with kind of a banker's box of my stuff from the office and looked up kind of at the tall building and at the sky, at the Lord, you know, at the heavens, and it's like okay, lord, what do you have next? I trust you. I trust you to provide. I know you have something for me. I knew that the Lord had allowed the situation to be brought about. I believe now to prove my faith, to prove that I really was who I claim to be at new creation in Christ.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of doubt in the church about someone coming out of such an extreme lifestyle and all the stuff that the Lord delivered me from. Is that a genuine conversion or is he eventually going to go back? And so I think that was an opportunity to show them kind of put your money where your mouth is, because I had a middle income there but I was a lower level manager and they had plans for me. If I was willing to turn my back on the Lord, jesus Christ, to lay down his life for me, if I'm willing to shut my mouth about him and go along with Satan's agenda, I was promised that there was a plan for me. You know what I mean. So praise the Lord for the fire, the bravery, to stand for him.
Speaker 2:It was about two months late then that the Lord had me in Uber driving and Lyft and that was kind of shotgun evangelism. I was evangelizing Muslims and people who were in the gay lifestyle and a lot of different types of folks in the backseat of the car and witnessing to them and giving them tracks and that sort of thing. And then the Lord called me over to Cambodia. So that was just a few months after I was finished with PNC. So I prayed for that with the Lord how that was to look and reached out as the Lord led to connections that I had over here. One good friend that I had made when I was over here had recently opened a school and he said I'm also an elder in the local church, deacon in the local church, the Baptist church here. I can plug you in there, you can serve in the church and work in my school.
Speaker 2:That was my first year. It wasn't easy, it was like military bootcamp a little bit. Staph infection on my leg, really pretty severe, a lot of really severe dehydration. So the climate it's so hot, it's so hot and I'm from Pennsylvania and we have three months that are relatively warm, but this was hot, beyond hot and I didn't realize that I had to drink a massive amount of water, like beyond a rational amount of water, just to stay afloat so I would be, I would be vastly ill and think what's this unusual disease?
Speaker 2:maybe it's malaria, it's like it's just dehydration, but it's really extreme, you know, like I felt like I didn't even have the energy to lift my arms sometimes. So then bacterial infection from the food. It's a developing country, so bacteria is a little different over here, a lot of different bacteria. So that was an issue too for a while there.
Speaker 2:But the Lord really manned me up through it and showed me, grew me and taught me how to fight through it, and about 96% Buddhists over here saw a lot of uphill battles related to trying to get the gospel out and sharing that the one true God, who created the heavens and the earth and died on the cross for our sins and rose again, is the God who lives and the God who loves you and the only one that can get you in the gates of heaven. Over here under Buddhism there's full-blown Satan worship. People realize that they are worshiping Satan. It's known, it's not something that someone's disguising.
Speaker 2:It's known that Satan could possibly. The fear is that Satan could possibly what do you call it could curse could curse your family. People wear a red bracelet around their wrists and put them on their little kids. They're living in terror of Satan. That Satan will curse their family if they don't appease him with worship.
Speaker 2:That's how Satan rules over here. He's the God of this world, like the Bible says in Corinthians, small g, but the God of this world ever since the garden, when we sinned against the Lord Jesus Christ and gave the power over to Satan being the God of the world system. He rules and reigns over here, sadly, but the Lord Jesus Christ is greater and has power over him. So getting the gospel through a lot of that is that. Take that leap of faith. Jump from the world, from religion, from Buddhism, into the arms of the Lord Jesus Christ and trust him to protect you. He who is in you is greater than he who is in this world. The Lord Jesus Christ, who lives in the heart of the believer by the power of the Holy Spirit, is greater than Satan and is more than able to protect you from Satan and his schemes.
Speaker 1:Testimony in a nutshell yeah, that is Praise the Lord. Testimony in a nutshell yeah, that is Praise the Lord. Yes, praise the Lord. Your testimony is so powerful. Even if I wanted to interrupt and say something, I have no idea what I would say. It was amazing. You said it all. God is totally glorified through everything that you have been through. I'm just in awe. Do you still get homosexual tendencies that you have to work through? Or when you came back to Jesus, was it instantly just gone? I'm pretty sure you've been asked this before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I step back for just one moment.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So there was a guy and I can't even remember his name right now, but he was interviewed on talk shows and a lot of different things. Yes, lifestyle, embracing what the Lord has for him, turning their back on homosexual desires to walk in new life in Christ, right To follow the Bible instead of his deceitful heart. So he came out and went on talk shows and everything was very widely known at the time and when people would ask him he came to the pressure and he said all of my homosexual desires are gone and I'm completely quote unquote straight with the world called straight and that sounds amazing and that's what everybody wants to hear. Right, like the greatest miracle ever. And the Lord can do that. I believe he can do anything.
Speaker 2:But this guy went back to his gay life eventually. So he and people like him are the reason that I have a difficult time now coming into the church convincing people that I'm here to stay, that I hate going back. You know what I mean? Yeah, because they made a bad name for us. Every time this question comes, it's like you feel that sense of pressure.
Speaker 1:I want you to be honest.
Speaker 2:But here's the reality of it. The world says gay and straight. What do they mean? They mean if you feel attracted to the opposite sex, and only the opposite sex, you are therefore straight. If you feel attracted to the same sex, and maybe also attracted to the opposite sex, but if you feel attracted to the same sex at all, therefore you are gay.
Speaker 2:The Bible says, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, that we all struggle with temptation. No, temptation is uncommon to man. Right that the Lord provides a way of escape. And Paul talked about the sin struggle that he had even after he gave his life to the Lord Jesus Christ. So it's extremely, extremely, very, very much 1,000% biblical that every single born again believer continues to struggle with temptation to sin.
Speaker 2:So when I say that, I feel like people are saying that's just a cop out. I'm going to turn off the interview. That's a cop out. He's trying to convince us that it's okay for him to what I'm not.
Speaker 2:I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything other than the fact that when you give your life to Christ out of alcoholism, you're probably at some point in your new life in Christ going to remember the time when you had a drink right. You're probably going to occasionally be tempted, wake up in the morning, have a tough day or something and think, man, I could use a drink after work. That's just reality, Unless we're hovering above the earth as sinless perfection. Nobody has reached a point of sinless perfection except the Lord Jesus Christ. So anything where I say that I'm completely void of temptation is a complete and utter lie. And it doesn't matter if it's John MacArthur or the world's most respected pastor. If they say they have no temptation in their life. They're a at some point or another to lie. You come out of drinking. You will, at some point or another, experience temptation to want to have another drink.
Speaker 2:And so the same with homosexuality. It was what I lived for about 10 years. I have a lot of memories and stuff related to that. It's a spiritual war that we live in. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. Satan would love to destroy my ministry. So at certain points, when there's stress in my life or something, does Satan want to bring up a memory of something? Yes, and what am I called to do? To reject and to deny myself and to follow God according to His Word, to follow the Lord Jesus Christ according to His Word. To follow the Lord Jesus Christ according to His Word, just like every single other born-again believer.
Speaker 2:So there's no fear about oh, my goodness, matt, do you have five accountability partners? Do you check in with them every Wednesday at eight and report everything you did that day? That, to me, is not a solution. That's what happened year one in the church, that church in Pittsburgh, acac. That's what they tried to do out of fear. They tried to rule over me through fear. Oh no, there's a high rate of recidivism from people coming out of homosexuality. Therefore, sign him up to an accountability group and check in with him, meet with him and force him to report to you periodically so that we can keep him in check.
Speaker 2:And what it did was it put a wet blanket over my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I found myself continually being forced to please men who, in that church, may or may not have been following the Lord Jesus Christ themselves, but they had a feeling of spiritual pride, like they were better than me and that I need to report to them and they needed to force me to follow the Lord, like they followed the Lord. And so it really it's extremely destructive when we come into somebody else's spiritual walk and try to force them to do something. It's asinine and it's crazy, and I'm the biggest proponent of treating someone like me who's born spiritual fruit. I'm out in the park witnessing the prostitutes in tears. After the Lord's delivered me, I've turned my back on money from the bank and come into a third world country to serve the Lord Jesus Christ. I've given my whole entire life for this. If you don't believe me now, I'm better off without you. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I can't do anything else?
Speaker 1:And I really appreciate your honesty and vulnerability about it, because that is true. I was addicted to pornography for about 17 years, maybe a little longer, and when I came out of it I cut myself off from it for a good year. I told everybody so that they could keep me accountable. A lot of people didn't actually keep me accountable, including my husband. I was like you have my passwords, you have everything. But he never checked up on me, which kind of surprised me. I was like why won't you check up on me? Don't you want to know that I'm doing the right things? But I feel like he could see the fruit, like you were saying.
Speaker 1:And I got saved through the craziest thing Go ahead Can.
Speaker 2:I say one thing In a roundabout way did that hold you more accountable. Maybe because you felt like why does he trust me so much? Maybe it made you even put yourself in check more.
Speaker 1:That made me. The fact that I told everybody that I could, that I had this problem, whether they were checking up on me or not. It made me want to do the right things and prove to them that I'm no longer going back to that because they trusted me. I guess that I meant what I said, that I had a problem and I was working on it and they just trusted me and that made me want to prove that they were right to trust me. So I totally get what you're saying and it makes sense.
Speaker 1:Some people think that you have to constantly be on somebody but then God can't do what he needs to do through that person because somebody's in the way. I mean, if you look at it as a visual, and God's trying to show you what to do, but somebody is right in front of you and you can't see God doing that because they're trying to do what they think God wants you to do. But somebody is right in front of you and you can't see God doing that, because they're trying to do what they think God wants you to do. You're not going to be able to follow God because you're too busy trying to look.
Speaker 1:You know, look around and be like get away, I'm trying to see God, so I definitely get it and, yeah, I mean I don't get tempted nearly as often as I used to when it was first fresh. It's probably been five plus years now that I've been free from it, but I do still get temptations. And we're not supposed to act like it's never going to come up or that, oh, I've reached it. We're always supposed to be constantly on the guard, on the alert that at any point in time Satan's going to just try to drop something, like you were saying. If you get angry or frustrated or you're having a bad day, satan might just try to sprinkle.
Speaker 1:remember this, you know and you have a choice to make at that point. It's the same with me. If I'm on my computer and I'm writing a story and I'm in the zone and I know that God's going to be glorified through what I'm writing, it might just pop in my head and be like some random has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Nothing to do with what I'm talking about, writing about poof, something that I watched long ago, and I'm like where's this coming from? And then I have a choice to make. Am I going to entertain that or am I going to just push it away and say no thanks, just continue with what I'm doing and I've gotten to a point where I can do that and it's not really a problem anymore.
Speaker 1:But that is a thing that we all go through and anyone who does say, oh yeah, I'm totally freed from that, completely never have any problems with it, is completely lying to you. So I do thank you so much for your honesty, because I think a lot of people need to hear that and they don't get that at all. So you touched on it a couple of times. But how does the church treat you as ex-gay missionary? Pastor?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that first church, ACAC, downsburgh good good in a lot of ways for me. I mean it was kind of open to having me, like I said, come out of a lifestyle I came out of. I think a lot of the most pushback I get is from church leadership, sadly to say. Like in that church, for example, I think most of the people in the congregation were supportive Go, go and praise the Lord for what he's doing in your life. I was doing an offertory song periodically and sharing a little testimony before that and the testimony I would share would maybe be a minute or maybe two at the very most, and eventually the person who was the administrator she came up to me, obviously ordered by a pastor, and said you know those testimonies, we don't have time anymore in our schedule, we're booked, so just sing, don't share any testimony anymore.
Speaker 2:And what I found was my parents actually came down and my dad kind of commented on it like man, people look really uneasy when you get to the point in your testimony where you talk about alcoholism and then it's like, now, why would that be? And then one of the elders of that church invited me to his birthday party around Christmas time. I went to the party and he was an elder in the church and it was open bar at the party. So what I found out? I'm not thinking. I'm kind of like apparently not thinking the whole thing through it, like, oh, so this is like a we're under grace, we're not legalist anymore, therefore drinking is okay. And then I come in with warnings against alcohol and they're thinking, oh, my goodness, people won't come back next sunday, so it's gonna. It destroys the revenue stream or damages the revenue stream. So that's that's, sadly, the core.
Speaker 2:Money is the root of all evil and sadly that's what I find to be the core of most of my problems in churches. It has to do with why are they angry? Why are they telling me not to do this? Oh, because of money. They're going to lose money. So this church, for example, wasn't a real hard line on either side of homosexuality. Not really a real hard line on it's sin, you must repent. Not a real hard line on either side of homosexuality. Not really a real hard line on it's sin, you must repent. Not real hard line on let's welcome the gays and not correct them. They wanted to kind of take a political stance, like someone running for office wants to just kind of stand in the middle somewhere so that they get money from both sides. If they stand on this side they'll lose the people over here and their money. They stand on that side, vice versa. So that's what they were doing.
Speaker 2:And then I went to another church and it was Baptist. It was pretty good. But I've been to several Baptist churches and the downside of not that one, not that one that I went to in Pittsburgh, I really appreciate the pastor there, but a lot of the Baptist churches tend to be a little bit more on the independent, fundamental, private club kind of spiritual pride kind of side. So it's kind of the other end of the spectrum with a lot of those churches where they kind of have somebody like me come in and it's like hmm, that sounds weird where you came from, my sin's forgiven. I'm confident of that, but I'm not sure yours is completely forgiven and if you were doing that stuff before which is not like us you're probably going to do it again. So I think you should just kind of take a back seat. We're not sure what we want to see this walked out for the next X number of years. See, we're not sure what we want to see this walked out for the next X number of years.
Speaker 2:I understand if I'm coming off the street, you're not going to trust me with the leadership position day one. That makes sense, but it can be pretty extreme. So now that I've been missionary and pastor and shared my testimony in different countries and different denominations and different churches, I've seen too much evidence to support the fact that it's not just a rational decision like, oh, he needs to prove himself for a year or so. They're really doing it because they really feel like we're better than you. That's typically what I get from the Baptist church, independent fundamental Baptist, bible Baptist, so on and so the same.
Speaker 2:The same thing happens over and over again, and the more welcoming, seeker, friendly, modern style churches typically don't want me sharing my testimony because it tramples underfoot the whole grace movement that they have in place where it's okay to do whatever you want, kind of thing. It destroys revenue on both sides and yeah, it's sad. We should be trusting the Lord now. I'm a pastor now and I see I have a little bit of compassion for them because I see it from the pastoral perspective. But like a lot of, I think, what was happening, especially in a Baptist kind of circle and also in the modern churches, if I come in with a pretty knock-down, drag-out testimony, praise the Lord, not me, it's the Lord's amazing work and the Lord's miracles. But if I come in with an unusual testimony that really grips the heart and gets attention and has tears running down people's faces, it takes some of the thunder away from the leadership.
Speaker 2:I also think, beyond the money, it's a bit of a power struggle, influence power kind of thing, where it's like he's not taking, of a power struggle, influence power kind of thing where it's like he's not taking my people you know what I mean. I can kind of understand that to a degree. But, man, the Lord called me to share this testimony all over. So when some churches have said why do you keep talking about the past? You're a new creation in Christ. Walk in the present, walk in the future. And it's like wow. The Bible says they defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony because they love not their lives, even unto death.
Speaker 2:Especially in this day and age like what we're talking about, 2024, with all the rampant homosexuality and non-binary and trans and everything, if I were to share my testimony I would be disobeying the Lord Jesus Christ who called me.
Speaker 2:That's a lot of my testimony first and foremost, or my ministry first and foremost, is sharing the gospel message. Obviously most important. Second to that is my testimony because of the timeliness of it and everybody around the world that's struggling with it. So you talked about accountability too, with your thing and how you told many, many people, and so, along those same lines, the Lord has called me to continually for the past 14 years and to this day and forward, I don't see an end to it anytime soon to share my testimony, and so people in the community, everywhere that I'm living, for example, testimony, and so people in the community, everywhere that I'm living, for example, know of me as the guy who left homosexuality. So it holds me accountable. You know what I mean. The Lord uses that to. It keeps me in check. Somebody asked me one time it was kind of a mentee of mine when do you think your testimony won't be relevant anymore, like, is there an expiration date on your testimony?
Speaker 2:No, I think, if I'm 90, I'll still be talking about what the Lord did for me, because it was just that amazing. Praise the Lord.
Speaker 1:Well, this has been an absolutely amazing conversation. Before we go, what are your thoughts on what is happening in the climate culture nowadays in America? I know you've been in Cambodia, so you haven't actually been here, but I'm pretty sure you keep tabs because your on what is happening in the climate culture nowadays in America. I know you've been in Cambodia, so you haven't actually been here, but I'm pretty sure you keep tabs because your family is still out here. So what do you have to say to everybody out here right now for what's going on?
Speaker 2:Just to kind of speak to the heart of somebody listening who might be in the same boat that I was in in my high school years. For example, I was bullied and my backpack thrown down and laughed and mocked and all that kind of stuff and that really had a detrimental impact on me and I think over time the accountability is all on me. I was the one who went out and acted on my sinful nature right, the ideas that came into my heart. I was the one that took steps on that and acted on it. I am completely, entirely accountable, not blaming anybody else, but it has an impact. You kind of start to feel like, do I have a choice? You know what I mean. It helped the enemy kind of get my buy-in on the lie that he was trying to sell me when other people chimed in. I guess, if anything, if there's any silver lining in the fact that there's more acceptance around whatever goes, I guess it would be that. I guess people were probably being bullied a little bit less than they were before. The sad part is now it seems to be a situation of peer pressure where someone could potentially just say that they identify as non-binary or trans or something because they want to be accepted by other people and want to be cool, and this is the latest kind of trend that's going around.
Speaker 2:So what the Lord did in my life 14 years ago, when I repented genuinely and put my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, was to really wash me clean in His blood and not, like you said, not to take away that temptation magically immediately. It wasn't like yesterday I was attracted to men and now I'm attracted to women. Only it wasn't like that kind of thing. It was the Lord making me comfortable in my skin. It doesn't matter what feelings or thoughts come through your heart, it doesn't like that kind of thing. It was the Lord making me comfortable in my skin. It doesn't matter what feelings or thoughts come through your heart, it doesn't matter what feels right. My word is right, right. The word of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bible, is what truly is right and there's no other benchmark for what's right. The Lord Jesus Christ, who loved me so much, he died for me, died for my sins, and he says I created you with male parts and male chromosomes and you are a man.
Speaker 2:I don't care anymore. So it comes down to I mean, I grew up in the Bible and memorizing scripture, I think, as a parent. If parents are out there wondering what can we do with our kids, I think, drown them in Scripture. I don't know that that's going to necessarily solve the problem. In my case, I was memorizing Scripture at a young age and I still went out and acted on my temptation. So I don't know that I have the silver bullet answer. But I know that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose. And even if somebody steps out into that life like I did and shipwrecks themselves, the Lord can use that, forgiven sin after they repent and put their faith and trust in Him to His glory.
Speaker 2:I've had so much opportunity to pray with people and help people to see the light of God's Word and the light of the Gospel through this, because of what I've been through. It gives me the right to be heard right. It gives me the right to speak on something otherwise I wouldn't be able to speak into. It's really the issue of our time that the US is falling, largely because of this and other issues that we've thrown away the Bible and tried to trust our own thoughts and figure that we're the ones that made ourselves the greatest nation on earth and the most powerful, we forgot the one that made us so great and rejected him. And so, because we've slipped on the Bible and thrown it out and trusted our evil thoughts and desires, we don't even know if we're a man or a woman anymore. Our consciences are seared with a hot iron. We don't know what's right and wrong, and so the only way back is to repent and put our faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and to follow Him according to His Word, not what churches are saying, not some pastor's opinion, but what the Bible actually says, according to the inspired and errant Word of God.
Speaker 2:For me, coming out of that life, the game changer is the strength of my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. It's not the strength of fellowship with other believers that's helpful, but it's the strength of my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. That I'm on my knees up to bed every morning, seeking Him through His Word and he's leading my daily life, that I have a real relationship with Him, that I'm hearing from Him. That's the litmus test. Do we really know Him? Does he really live within us? Are we really following Him? Are we obedient to Him? That's the game changer. That's how we get to a place of victory over our sinful nature, over sin, over the world, over Satan, over the fear of death. Praise the Lord only by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:Amen. Well, thank you so much, Pastor Matt, for coming on and chatting with us today. It's been very encouraging, very enlightening. I appreciate your vulnerability.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
