Honest Christian Conversations
A weekly podcast dealing with cultural and spiritual issues within the Christian faith.
Want to be a guest on Honest Christian Conversations? Send Ana Murby a message on PodMatch, here: https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/honestchristianconversations
Honest Christian Conversations
Empowering Women Through Stories of Resilience
What happens when a home church's comforting walls morph into a cult's confining barriers? Join us as we unravel the extraordinary and courageous journey of Mischelle Saunders-Gottsch, a survivor who escaped such entrapment. Mischelle shares her compelling story of growing up in a religious cult, a path chosen by her family rather than herself. Her experiences expose the dark underbelly of control and manipulation, often disguised under the veil of faith.
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Altered Stories Website: https://alteredstories.org/
Altered Stories Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/altered-stories-show/id1451439732
Mischelle's Devotional:
https://alteredstories.org/devo/
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Michelle Saunders Gutsch is a soft-spoken powerhouse. She has been through the ringer, having escaped from years in a religious cult. Listen to her story of how she came to be involved in said cult, how her family managed to escape and how she has grown in her faith and been able to heal since that time. This episode is powerful but could be triggering for some, so keep that in mind Before the episode starts. Make sure you follow the show so you never miss another episode. Michelle, thank you so much for coming on today to talk about this wonderful and also scary topic. It's definitely something that's necessary. The whole idea of a cult. A lot of people use that word, but I'm not really sure they know what it means. And before you get into your actual story, will you please share with us the definition of a cult for those who may not be familiar?
Speaker 2:Well, I can't without going back and looking in terms of the different definitions out there of cult. Wikipedia probably has something, webster, all of that but I can tell you that there is a distinguishable difference between an occult like witchcraft which you could, if you wanted, to say, witches can be cultish or a cult, which there are more than what people really know of these cults, and I would say that the one thing that really defines cult is control, very much control, leader control. There is agenda, and agenda that's not where God is at the center. Okay, it's an agenda that is driven by the leader, and there could be a lot of arguments out there about Mormonism and people that are also in the Jehovah Witness faith, and some people could say that they would consider those groups cult because their leaders are all about trying to get people to be controlled into one truth, one way of thinking and living, and also there's a separation from others Others. There's not unity, and so I can say that that is without ever. It's kind of a. It's an.
Speaker 2:Actually a very excellent question, but if you look up cult in the dictionary, but if you look up cult in the dictionary according to definitions from Oxford languages, you will find that they call it a system of religious, I would say devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. Some could call it a relatively small group of people that have beliefs or practices regarded as strange or sinister, maybe a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. So I mean that's kind of in alignment. Now Wikipedia, as I said, they'll say it's a lay term for a group perceived as requiring unwavering devotion to a set of beliefs and practices which are considered defiant outside the norms of society. So all those collectively and what I shared from you know just my own, I think I'm hoping will give your listeners kind of an understanding.
Speaker 1:People like to throw words out. I'm realizing that a lot, and a lot of times we don't know what they mean, we just throw them out, and that is one of them that gets thrown out. People say that sometimes about our church. But we point to Jesus, we point to the Bible. It's growing because we're sharing the love of Jesus, we're sharing the true gospel and people want that, they crave that. It's why it's growing. It's not a secluded cult, but people will say that, and mostly everyone who says it has not even been there. It's like well, how do you know? You have not been anyone near the place. Go first and then make your assumptions. But that's just what we do. We make assumptions, we don't think before we speak, we don't know definitions or take the time, and it doesn't help that nowadays people are just kind of changing definitions all the time anyways for things what is a woman? What is a man? A?
Speaker 2:baby, all these things.
Speaker 1:They're just throwing words out so you never know what it's actually going to mean. They could change the definition for cult tomorrow, for all we know. Hopefully not, but they probably will. They probably have, they've probably updated it and we just didn't know.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, it's a great question and I think you need to because it definitely. I think when you think of, like I said, a cult, they're supernatural, magical, that, that it is. You know a difference. Yeah, yeah, although some cults could bring in powers like that, but that's not typically the center.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. Well, why don't you go ahead and share your story of how you got into a cult and then share how you came out of it? It's a big loaded question.
Speaker 2:I'm writing a book called my Altered Stories, a healing memoir, my journey as a childhood cult survivor back to faith in God. So there will be more details coming out of my book, and to do this I'll do it as best as I can for your listeners too, without going into too much detail. But I will say that I was in this cult because my mother made the choice to be part of it and I was a child, and I was her child and I was brought into it along with my siblings at that time, and so I didn't have a choice in whether I attended or was involved. It was something that I had, that was imposed on me. I'm not saying I'm the victim, but I am saying that the responsibility for why I got there was because my mom, who was the parent that got me involved, was instrumental in getting me there. But it was through her relationship with friends that were part of this home church group that the cult at that time was introduced. But it was not really a cult at that time. It was a home group church of Christians with a leader who'd been thrown out of the church and he was, I think, bringing his belief system out to others through connection and it was people that knew him and then they had friends, and then they had friends and it kind of grew systemically that way. And so I started attending the home church with my mom, my siblings that were there at that time when it was started in Rapid City, south Dakota, and then from there my parents moved because my dad was in the Air Force and he had been assigned to go overseas and at that time my mom and dad made the choice. My mom and us kids were to stay in the United States but my mom wanted to relocate to where this I will call him cult leader moved and a lot of other of the Christians that were part of this group also relocated, were part of this group, also relocated, and that's kind of how we continued our connection through just our continued relationships.
Speaker 2:And then I was part of that. I started at the age of seven and we were exposed. I was exposed to this church group that became very oppressive, very controlling, very isolating, very legalistic I mean all of the things that you would find typical in these cults that are out there. And then kids were starting to, I would say, change their loyalty from their parents to the cult theater and my dad, because he was overseas, he wasn't as aware because back then there was not the technology you have now. You don't have. You know you're communicating through letters or phone and my dad just wasn't aware of how in-depth this grew, how the control and all of that, how it was affecting my mom and all of that how it was affecting my mom, how it's affecting our family, and so that progressed and it got to a place of where, when this man was I think I think where he was because I had the mind of a child I think where he was was he thought in his mind, because I do believe he had mental health problems and a lot of people that were brought into this group.
Speaker 2:They didn't have a lot of mental strength, they didn't know their truth. They're very gullible, vulnerable, emotionally based. I think he started really taking advantage of people's allegiance and loyalty and at that time, back then, there was a lot of this psycho psychology where people were doing weird things like these tests with kids and no clothes on and different. I mean, I think, where he was coming from, when we ended up immersing ourselves, unfortunately, in some of what I would consider his I would call it more sexual assault, when he was starting to you know, bring in what, these Bible studies where people didn't have you know their clothing on. I think he was trying to equate that to you know, being raw in front of God, being authentic. You know, you know sin. You know I can't say for sure, but you only can put some kind of logic in your head around this and where you go. Oh my gosh, how could a person you know in our society think something like that wouldn't be exposed?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think, because I was the age I was, he knew he was teetering on, potentially because there were members coming and going. And then, I think, when this actually escalated, where families were being torn apart and you know, and people were starting to see that this was just not right, I think that's when there was some exposure to the press in Montana, and then that is when things were happening in our family too and my dad came back from being overseas. I mean, there was a series of things that transpired, but that was when, I think, my dad really realized and the courts that were involved and people's lives that were being destroyed as a result of this. I think that's when the light bulb went on and my mom and dad came to a point where my dad's like you got to leave or I'm going to take the kids, and so, anyway, that, thankfully, my dad, my mom, were able to go forward in their relationship and heal, and God opened doors for that.
Speaker 2:It took time because from the time, like I said, from seven to 12, I was involved and I had other friends within this cult, some that came, some that went and that helped, and I went to public school. They didn't make us go to a special school or anything and that helped me mentally to be able to continue to live my life with some kind of normalcy. But it was very hard on my self-esteem and it was very hard on me because I felt violated and there were just those kinds of things that a child in my age group should not have been exposed to. And my parents eventually did lose custody of my brother and they were very fortunate they didn't lose custody of me and I could have ended up in the foster system. I could have ended up being taken.
Speaker 2:My parents, my mom, could have been thrown in jail through some of my therapy and things that I had to deal with because I suppressed it and I didn't, you know, understand the trauma and I didn't understand all of really what had happened and the effect it had until later on in life.
Speaker 2:But I mean, thank God my mom came to the realization of everything and what had happened and the trauma it had caused on her family and we were able to work through that in our relationship and my parents were able to work through, although there was still lots of healing and it really destroyed our family unit at a very young age. But there's a lot to this. I'm kind of jumping around because I don't know your listeners that well and I don't know what faith they're coming from or all of that, but that's the highlight. I mean, we went from a location in South Dakota to a location in Wyoming, to a location in Billings, and followed this man and then we were eventually out of this cult, thank God, and I suppressed it and I wanted nothing to do with Christians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wanted to ask.
Speaker 2:That was the part that was hard.
Speaker 1:How did all that make you feel about Jesus? Who doesn't love free? I know I do. That's why I created a free seven-day devotional for those who want to go deeper with God. It's a short devotional full of encouragement, guidance and impactful Bible verses related to everyday struggles we all go through. I know you will love this devotional as much as I enjoyed writing it and since it's digital, you can do it anywhere anytime, perfect for the person always on the go. Get the free devotional when you sign up for my mailing list. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Well, I had a relationship with Jesus earlier on and I loved him so much. When I went through this experience, I was really confused. I was really confused about who Jesus was and I actually was sickened, you know, by people and people that were drawn to this kind of cult and people that were drawn that were not strong in their mind and belief systems. So I think the turnoff for me was anybody that showed any kind of weakness at all later on in life, because this man was so just controlling and he was not a very mentally healthy man. Anyway, you know, I could see how he was tearing down families and how his own family was messed up and how he tried to control and force his beliefs on other people and I didn't think Jesus was like that. You know I didn't.
Speaker 2:You know, I had a hard time. I really had a hard time with trust in relationships and trust in God, and did God really have my back? I mean, we got out of this cult, I was able to move forward. God blessed me in so many ways later in life and he also showed me how important it is to know his word and how important it is to be around sound people and lifestyle and all of that so that you could be on the right path, instead of being on a path that was destructive and chaotic and filled with fear and anxiety and just not the kind of freedom that we get right In Jesus Christ, the right freedom, the healthy freedom that you get. So I don't know if that's enough, but usually that gives people, I hope, some sense of kind of the story of what happened.
Speaker 1:It can probably be a triggering thing, especially for those who have been through that. It gives just enough of an overview where, if someone is in it right now, they might have that moment where the light bulb goes off and they realize that they're in it. Yeah, Then they can reach out to you for help you for help to get it on.
Speaker 2:Well, I have people that are doing that right now. But one thing I want to make sure your listeners are aware of it's like you got to be really careful not to normalize this kind of behavior. That's the thing. It's not normal to be like that. It's not well for one thing, it's not even godly.
Speaker 2:If you search the scriptures and you read the scriptures and Jesus was not that kind of that, wasn't his gospel. And so I think my mom came out of Catholicism or she was a Catholic converted to Christianity through the Billy Graham crusade, never really found a sound biblical church and then ended up off on a beaten path because she had friends there and she was looking for community and there she went, and that was years of her and other people I'm just not the only one. There were other families, other people that came and went and got the brunt of the unhealthy behaviors and that makes it tough, especially as kids. But I have to remind everyone I was a child and now I'm an adult, so I'm trying to bring the perspective of a child and I'm an adult, so I'm trying to bring the perspective of a child and I'm an adult, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's probably hard because as a child you trust your parents. You trust their judgment that they're going to do what's best for you. So when you see that they're either participating it or whatever, it just looks to you like okay, I can trust what they're saying. Obviously this is okay. Otherwise my mom or my dad wouldn't let me do it. But then as you get older, you start seeing things for yourself and you're like well, I don't feel like reading the Bible naked.
Speaker 1:I'm going through an awkward phase as a 12-year-old. That's not what I want to do. And then you get shamed for it and at some point you feel this is not okay and you start making those decisions. And then you look to your parents and say why aren't you protecting me now? This does not seem right and I'm glad that you were able to get out of it while you were still young and able to preserve what little innocence you may have had at that point that wasn't ripped from you, and that you were eventually able to come to a healthy love for the true Jesus Christ, who would never put you in that kind of a position. And I'm sorry that you had to go through this and went through a period of time that I think a lot of people go through who just believe that the church is a cult.
Speaker 1:They hate them for whatever reason. They hate God and it's usually associated with something that someone did to them in a religious manner. I think I have yet to hear somebody say a specific reason why they hate God, and it's related to God specifically why they hate him. It's always something to do with his. People did this. Again, we're flawed. We're people. We make mistakes. God is not like that, and it's heartbreaking to hear these stories of people walking away from the faith because of people. These stories of people walking away from the faith because of people well-intentioned, not well-intentioned, whatever it is and they're just leading people the wrong way and pushing people away from God.
Speaker 2:It affects a lot. I think the biggest thing for me was the relationship I had with my mom. I lost total respect for her and so there was no respect at all, and then she lost complete control of me after a certain age and then when my dad was back from serving and was more in the family because this happened, unfortunately, and I'm going to bring this military life is not always good. The things that happened, too was my dad going overseas, my dad having a military career and my mom being at the home and my dad not being involved and not being the spiritual leader and not as an you know. So there was that transpired leader and not as an you know. So there was that transpired you know. I just feel that that was instrumental too, and when my dad was really aware of what had really happened, then the damage had been done, and so that took a lot of time.
Speaker 2:By God's grace, by his mercy, I did see Jesus restore Okay, so that's a good thing. Jesus did restore our family, but it took a long time because I didn't really understand the trauma and everything until I went and met with the mental health counselor and then the story and sharing that and getting that out there. And then God brought me to Altered Stories Ministry, to launch the ministry and helping women, give them a voice, sharing. All of that was ordained. So what I went through, god has used it for good and I love that you're going to do more teaching. I think what's really important is that Christians understand their truth, understand the truth of the gospel, what God is all about, and that this is never someone else's agenda. Jesus is on the throne.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amen.
Speaker 2:He is on the throne, and so if you people want to put in their flesh, in their leading, and all their desires, so we could go on and on and on, talk more, and more and more, but I'm hoping that I could share just enough.
Speaker 1:Tell us about your ministry. You mentioned that you help women share their stories. So these would be women who have come out of cults or situations kind of similar to that. And are they just local stories that you have, or do you have them from all over the world?
Speaker 2:My ministry is a global mission and it is a ministry for women, for uniting women, bridging sisterhood and helping women, giving them a platform to share their God's stories of redemption and overcoming adversity transformational stories and they are stories of where God came in, situations changed and God healed them and brought them to where they are in their life today. So it's called Altered Stories Ministry. The story is altered and so we have women all over the world. I've put out 143 episodes and women have been Barbados, south Africa, estonia. I've got them in Europe, we got Iran, we got Pakistan, got India. Women from all over. But women are women and these stories are healing and they do bring healing to the woman that shares and even healing to those that hear this story, and so I believe God wanted me to start this ministry. It wasn't until later on in life that I felt the call, but that was after I shared and found the redemption and the healing and I saw that when I shared and told my story.
Speaker 2:There was healing and there was so much that came out of it but, more importantly, god was glorified through it. And he was and is glorified through the ministry. And we do blogs, we do luncheon events, workshops. I speak at retreats, I speak to women, helping them find the story inside of them or get to a place of being able to get through their trauma, to be able to move ahead into the calling God has.
Speaker 1:There's something special about sharing testimonies. That's why the Bible mentions it.
Speaker 2:There's a lot to it and, more importantly, it overcomes the enemy. The power of your testimony can overcome the enemy and I think women walk around wounded and hurt and fearful, and it's really a ministry to Christian women, but there's a lot of other women that listen, so it really is pre-evangelism and thank you for letting me share that, anna. So we're out there, wwwalteredstoriesorg, we're on all the social media, we're growing. God is blessing us with favor because we're building the kingdom of God through this power of the story. So that's the cool thing, and it wasn't until I was able to actually share mine, that healing began Nice.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm excited to read your book, and I'm sure there's going to be many others who would love to read your book as well. Is it out yet, or it's coming out soon?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm working with my publisher right now on trying to pull together a plan for the book is written. We're refining and trying to come up with a plan to get the book launched.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I'm an author, so I get that.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, I have a devotional that I actually wrote. That is out there. That highlights all my episodes. It's digital, you can get it. It's 52 weeks for a woman that might be interested or someone to hear all the top 52 episodes of all the stories and it does some reflection. But that's actually out there, but it's not an hard copy. That was something I did. That's actually out there but it's not an hard copy. That was something I did. And then this healing memoir book. I want that book to minister to those who've come out of trauma and hard things and there are more cults out there than what people realize. There's a lot of them out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we need to stay focused on the Word of God and understand what he's telling us in the Bible, and that will help us discern what is right and what is wrong. Yes, I agree. I agree ministry and your podcast and hopefully your book when it comes out, and I will put a link to that devotional that you mentioned. I'll put that in the show notes for anyone who wants that. Thank you, anna.
Speaker 2:This is a blessing. I love having honest conversations with other Christians.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's definitely not something that happens very often, but I'm hoping it's going to start becoming a trend because it's necessary.
Speaker 2:It really is.
Speaker 1:We've skirted issues for far too long and look where it's gotten us, so it's time to lace it up, pull our pants up all the way and stop being so comfortable.
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean it's not comfortable having conversations like this. I mean it's just not, but they need to be. We need to have them, those conversations are needed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're supposed to share the gospel and there's more way than just one way to do that. And this is definitely a way to do that, because we're helping people get away from the narrow, the wide path and we're trying to put them back on the narrow path.
Speaker 2:So that is right, absolutely I agree with you. Thank you for your support. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share what I did. Share, yeah, no problem.
