Honest Christian Conversations
A weekly podcast dealing with cultural and spiritual issues within the Christian faith.
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Honest Christian Conversations
What is the New Apostolic Reformation? Pt.2
Join me as Amelia Walden illuminates this movement's controversial beliefs and practices, offering a critical perspective that promises to challenge your understanding of modern Christian dynamics. We aim to navigate these complexities honestly and gracefully through respectful dialogue and a commitment to truth.
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I am so glad that last week's episode didn't scare you off. If you have no idea what I'm referring to, because this is your first time listening to the podcast, welcome, I'm glad you're here. Listen to Episode 1 of Season 4 before you listen to this episode any further, because this is Part 2 of my conversation with Amelia Walden about the New Apostolic Reformation. If you did listen to the first episode and are ready for more, let's get to it Before the episode starts. Make sure you follow the show so you never miss another episode. Welcome back, Amelia.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad to continue our conversation from last week, which was about NAR, the New Apostolic Reformation. Before we get into any new information, I want to say that this is a continuation, so if you didn't listen to last week's episode, make sure you do that one first, otherwise you might be slightly lost. Also, Amelia wanted to address a little bit of something she was talking about in the last episode and just go a little more in depth to it, so we're going to do that before we jump into the rest of today's topic. So go ahead, amelia.
Speaker 2:Well, first, thank you so much for having me back. I'm excited to continue the conversation. I know we had so much more to talk about, yes, but I did want to touch on the Sozo piece a little bit, because the friends that performed the Sozo I guess you could say they are friends that I absolutely love, I respect them are friends that I absolutely love, I respect them and I don't want to knock them down in any way by speaking about my beliefs, that I have since learned about Sozo and about Bethel Church and the origins of Sozo. So I just want to put that out there, that I'm not trying to knock anyone down that has done it, that has gone through an experience with it, and just kind of that little disclaimer there that we're all on our journeys, we're all on our walks and we all learn new information all the time, and that's perfectly okay. So I was there.
Speaker 2:If somebody listening to this has done SOZO as well, don't feel bad about it. I was there, I did it. We learn, we grow and that's the whole point of walking with Jesus every day. So just wanted to throw that little disclaimer out there that they are friends that I love and care about deeply and I have a different belief than them, but that doesn't change the friendship or how we approach each other.
Speaker 1:And there's a good life lesson in there for everybody. We're not here to bash anyone. We're here to discuss problematic themes within the Christian faith that could be leading people astray, and whether we agree or disagree on those, that should not change how you treat somebody. Always be respectful when you disagree, agree to disagree whatever, be respectful about it, and if you can hold on to those relationships, all the better. If you have to, let it go, let it go, but be respectful in all. That is basically what I hear you saying.
Speaker 1:So thank you, thank you for that, because that is necessary and a great way to start off this episode and the season in general. So with that, I pulled out my as I showed you before we started my vintage Backstreet Boys notebook where I took my notes and I decided to skim through some of them so that we can discuss in a little more detail what I learned from that gotquestionsorg video with Pastor Nelson. So I wanted to go a little more in depth and talk about different issues that really were problematic with NAR, that really were problematic with NAR, and did you want to start off talking about any that concern you, or do you want me to skim through my notes and try to find?
Speaker 2:something in my chicken scratch, I think. So I know that you have a description of what NAR is and more of a definition somewhere in your notes, because we talked about that last time. So I think that would probably be the best jumping off point for us and, trust me, I will have notes to write while you're talking and be able to respond.
Speaker 1:All right. Well then we're going to start with the fact that they are very central on having cultural and political control. Bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth seems to be a big theme within NAR and I don't know I don't really know where they're getting their theology on how this is correct. We aren't supposed to be bringing the kingdom of heaven down here. Kingdom of heaven is in heaven. We aren't going to make this place perfect. When Jesus comes back, he's going to create a new earth and a new heaven. So I feel like we'd be laboring in vain trying to do that here on this earth, which is broken and will be broken until Jesus comes home. So yeah, I don't understand where that's coming from. But let's see what other notes I had were.
Speaker 1:They have a particular distinction in the NAR various roles, powers for the spiritual leaders and miracle workers. They have a hierarchy. I guess you could call it that the apostles and prophets are above pastors and leaders and everyone else is below all that and everyone has to be in submission to the apostles and prophets. They're the leaders. It's kind of what you were discussing last time when you said it felt cultish. I could, I can see that, because that that is how cults work is you follow the leader, the supreme leader. You don't question their judgment. Everyone follows them, no matter who you are. You drink the Kool-Aid and I don't like Kool-Aid, but yeah, I just.
Speaker 1:That's not what the Bible teaches. It says Jesus is no respecter of humans. We all are the same. We are all equal in God's eyes. No one is better than someone else because of a gift they have. If you look at the apostles and how they talked in the Bible, they were humble about what they could do. They rebuked the person who tried to buy it. So obviously this is a serious offense to think that you are better than someone else because you have these gifts or think you have these gifts. So I definitely that concerns me a lot because that completely flips what Jesus was trying to do on its head.
Speaker 1:Think about when I think it's Paul when he's talking about the various gifts. And you know you can't function without an eye, you can't function without an ear, a leg. Everyone's got a part to play in the church. So if everyone has a part to play and we are all important, then where do people who believe in the new apostolic reformation where do they get their theology that apostles and prophets are better and we need to listen to them and submit to their authority? We are only supposed to submit to the authority of Jesus Christ, not an apostle, not, I mean, even even John. John pointed to Jesus, said follow I think it was John said follow me, as I follow Jesus. Maybe that was Paul, but their whole theme was they were pointing back to Jesus. They didn't want people to glorify them, they wanted people to glorify Jesus, and if you aren't doing that, then you're doing it wrong.
Speaker 2:You are literally going against what the Bible is telling us. Yes, and I have so many notes right now.
Speaker 1:Go ahead, go with some notes and then I can skim through my notes and find the next talking points.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, and so my first point I'll start at the end and then kind of circle back to the beginning. So you were saying that there's an array of gifts, and I heard a sermon once that was talking about a buffet of gifts, and so it's like you have all of these spiritual gifts and everybody that makes up the church body is portioned. They all have their own spiritual gifts, right. So somebody can be great at working with their hands, another person really loves working with children, and you know there's all sorts of spiritual gifts that the Bible talks about, right. But when we come together, we're able to blend those gifts together, to be a church body, to be the hands and feet of Jesus, to show the world a different perspective, to show the world that Jesus is the way, that the Bible is the true word of God, that that is what we should be following and seeking after. And the sermon that I heard that talked about this. He was saying what if you brought your own lunch bag into? You know, insert your favorite buffet, luby's, I don't know wherever, yeah, but if you brought your own sack lunch and didn't purchase from the buffet and just sat down in the restaurant and started eating, what do you think the owners of that restaurant would do they? No, it doesn't work like that. A buffet is to come and partake, to be a part of, to go through the line of foods. Obviously it's transferring to spiritual gifts. But to partake and to give your portion of your spiritual gift and contribute to the big C church body, because God gave us all different gifts and he can use us in so many ways and some of us have multiple gifts. I mean, there's so many people out there that I know that can just do so many things for the kingdom of God. So that was my point. With the spiritual gifts, we don't submit to anybody, in that we don't bring our own sack lunch. We don't only seek after the guidance of one person, and some people even do this with pastors, sometimes at megachurches. They'll make the pastor this idol and really, if the pastor is in the word and humble about it, he's going to be like oh no, no, not me.
Speaker 2:God, jesus, youers and hierarchies, where there was one of the videos that I watched on NAR and there was somebody who used to be called an apostle at his church and he had since left New Apostolic Reformation he had to go to or the quote unquote training he had to go to to be an apostle and he had to pay money for this. And I think anyone out there probably had just a pit in their stomach, as I just said that, that he had to pay money to be considered an apostle, because I feel like that is just scam marketing. None of the apostles had to pay money to follow jesus. It's this creation of a business kind of using the gospel. And I also heard I think it's the same pastor actually that talked about the buffet. But the gospel is not yours to sell. You know, jesus is not yours to sell. And by making people pay to be an apostle, or even, I guess, giving people the idea that that is okay, is just it's so far from what the Bible is talking about.
Speaker 2:And Paul was someone that came up in my thoughts when you were talking, because Paul was so humble and he always stated over and over again that he was not worthy. He was the least worthy to be an apostle of Jesus, to be a disciple of Jesus, to follow Jesus, to be preaching the gospel. He was not worthy and I don't think he ever really felt worthy. He just went and did what he knew he was supposed to do, but he did not feel worthy because of his past. And so where these people are selling apostleship and basically creating a rank system, I don't feel like there is any humble nature in any of that. And if we look at any of the apostles, they were all very humble about the situation that they were in, if not even worried about the situation they were in. They had doubts. It wasn't easy to be a disciple of Jesus, you know, and I think there's a lot of people out there that think it is going to be easy, and it's not all rainbows and butterflies as much as Christians would like to paint it like that. I mean, jesus isn't a pill we can take and automatically just everything Poof, it's better. Yeah, it's not a genie, but you were talking about.
Speaker 2:So circling back around to your first point, heaven on earth and cultural and political control there, I think political discussions right now are such a hot button issue. But really, when we look at it, of course the bible and people will say that the Bible is not a political book but the Roman government ultimately put Jesus on the cross, and so there was politics involved in that, the party of circumcision, where the Pharisees and the Jews that had converted to Christianity. They were saying that you had to be circumcised in order to be a Christian, and it's almost as if this is one of those situations that's talked about in the Bible and it's formed into this NAR I don't even know the word that I'm thinking of but idea or political party power party that has this popular music, that has these mega churches, that has these famous pastors that are charismatic and out there and really hooking the people that don't know any better. And it's I mean hook line and sinker right. They're getting the people that aren't well, and I mean even well. Yeah, I was, I felt like I was well founded in the word and you know, I still fell for part of it. So, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:It's all about control. And back to the cult thing Cults are all about control as well. They want to control the masses. They want to control the people that are underneath them, want to control the masses. They want to control the people that are underneath them, and they have to do that. They have to create that hierarchy in order to be able to do that. When you switch your thinking to that of wait, hang on, what am I actually getting myself into. Is this doctrine, is this Bible, is this God's word? Or is this what this pastor is telling me and claiming to be, and saying that doesn't align with scripture? We should always back everything up against scripture, and if it doesn't mesh, we might need to think twice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I completely agree. So another thing that's big about this movement is the seeking of signs and wonders. It's always followed by blatantly false doctrine. And then they have growth in. The new apostolic reformation is primarily driven by small groups and church planting, often completely independent from a parent congregation. The movement isn't centrally controlled and many of its followers won't self-identify as part of it or even recognize the name.
Speaker 1:Those are some pretty crazy statements. And, yes, signs and wonders, I have noticed, is big in this movement because it's emotion, it's your feelings and the music and everything gets you in this. I feel God is here, he's doing these things, and he might not be there, he might not be doing these things. It could just be you having a moment. We've all had those moments if we've gone to a church camp and you just feel like God was there because the music was emotional and the moment you're set apart from your everyday life and the things you do. You just have that spiritual high.
Speaker 1:But then you go home and it's gone, and then what are you going to think? Maybe I didn't really have Jesus in the first place, because I don't feel that anymore. I'm not feeling him talking to me and there's going to be moments when you I don't feel that anymore, I'm not feeling him talking to me, and there's going to be moments when you just don't feel God's presence there. It doesn't mean he isn't there. Maybe you need to check yourself and see if you've moved, because he doesn't move, but maybe it's just a season where you're just not feeling it all the time. You're not going to feel it all the time and they are very feelings, signs, wonders. You've got to see these things, you've got to experience them, and if you're not doing them yourself, then you're wrong.
Speaker 2:You aren't a true believer and these are lies and wrong to tell people that because you are messing with their faith is such a big thing, because I have, definitely I have been at a church service where I just know and it's I mean, I can pinpoint one specific church service within probably the past couple of years that I was at and I just knew the Holy Spirit was there and it was. The Holy Spirit is alive and among us today. And you know, there were people that were dropping to their knees in worship which was actually something I've never, ever done in like a worship service or anything like that and I felt like I had to get on my knees in that moment and when I opened my eyes, there were people all around me that had done the same thing, people that didn't do it. So, you know, it's not to say that signs and wonders aren't a thing, because the Holy Spirit absolutely makes those happen, but it's the seeking after those above seeking God, and I think that I think we talked about this the last episode but we should never seek the signs and wonders above seeking the word and above seeking actual scripture and above seeking God. It's not the signs and wonders and feelings and emotions that we get from a worship, music or whatever, and, while you can have that, that's not what we should be seeking. We're not seeking a spiritual high Like you said. We need to be seeking Jesus. We're not seeking a spiritual high like you said. We need to be seeking Jesus, for Jesus, not a spiritual high for ourselves, because it's not about us.
Speaker 2:You know, and I think too a lot of people, when they hear about these signs and wonders happening, they feel less than and I think we might have touched on this the last episode too but feeling less than because they haven't experienced something like that. And man, am I really a true follower of God or am I doing the right things? Then you get into a workspace and it's like no, don't go into that, because nobody, like you said, is lesser than in the eyes of God, even the people that you may dislike or have a problem with. I mean, there's a prayer that is a very common prayer for people to pray when they're trying to forgive others, and it's help me to see them through your eyes, jesus. He sees us all through his eyes of being his children. We wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't put those restrictions or put those parameters on our children. So why in the world do we think that God does? Because he doesn't.
Speaker 1:Who doesn't love free? I know I do. That's why I created a free seven-day devotional for those who want to go deeper with God. It's a short devotional full of encouragement, guidance and impactful Bible verses related to everyday struggles we all go through. I know you will love this devotional as much as I enjoyed writing it and since it's digital, you can do it anywhere, anytime, perfect for the person always on the go. Get the free devotional when you sign up for my mailing list. The link is in the show notes. Yeah, I agree. So we're going to get into some beliefs that they have, because those are just the main bullet points of what they focus on. So these are the beliefs and this is from seriously. This is all from an eight minute gotquestionsorg video with Pastor Nelson.
Speaker 2:The most jam-packed eight minutes.
Speaker 1:I know, man, that was crazy and I didn't write everything down. But now he gets into some of the beliefs that they have and then we can figure out what we want to say about it. So one of the things that he says in this video NAR teaches that God's intended form of church governance is apostles and prophets, like we already mentioned, holding leadership over evangelists, pastors and teachers, and he makes a mention that this hasn't been the case for the majority of Christian history. So why do we think that now, all of a sudden, it's happening? But I know that a lot of times when you talk to people who believe in this NAR, they'll say that he's restoring the apostleship because we need it now or whatever.
Speaker 1:And I don't see how that makes any biblical sense, because you mentioned it in the first episode about what it takes to be an apostle, about what it takes to be an apostle. And none of these people have been ordained by Jesus because he's not here to appoint them and they did not see Jesus resurrect. So there's another reason why they can't speak into how they're apostles or prophets. But it says, according to the new apostolic reformation, god began restoring the office of apostles and prophets over the last 30 to 40 years. Only now, as the church is properly guided by the appropriate spiritual leaders, can it fulfill its commission. And this commission is seen as more than the spiritual, as it includes cultural and political control.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you don't have a pit in your stomach. When you were saying restore the office over the last 30 to 40 years, I literally felt my stomach drop. How old are these men? 30, 40, 50? I mean, they're not all that old, so they've been restoring the office since they were born, to their 20s. Hmm, sounds. It makes you think. The math, really the math is a lighting for things to not be true.
Speaker 1:You know, for it to be a man-made human thought that has just spread like wildfire, misguided and wrong, and doing it wrong because we didn't have the proper spiritual leaders, alignment, as they were saying, to fulfill our commission. I believe the commission is to go and tell the good news to everybody. The Great Commission Church, right yeah, if you're doing that, then you must be doing the commission and you're doing what you're supposed to. We didn't need anyone to spiritually lead us in that direction other than Jesus and the Holy Spirit leading us.
Speaker 2:And I think if we were doing it wrong for centuries, I mean, I think Jesus would have come back and corrected us by now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he would have sent apostles and prophets back then if we had been missing the boat for that long and all these people had been going to hell because we forgot or didn't do it right. So, yeah, it's extremely fishy and interesting that all these people who are within that age range are now saying, oh well, it's only been since this amount of time. I don't think so. No, doesn't pass the don't think so. Nope, doesn't pass the sniff test for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So another thing that they're saying. Let's see. It says NAR apostles are seen as the highest of all the spiritual leaders, as we were mentioning, being specifically empowered by God. True maturity and unity in NAR is only found in those who submit to the leadership of the apostles. According to this teaching, as the church unifies behind the apostles, these leaders will develop greater and greater supernatural powers. Eventually these will include mass healings, suspension of laws. I think I wrote I can't read all of this that I wrote. My chicken scratch is terrible but basically the signs and wonders. As everyone submits to their leadership, they become more and more powerful and they can do all these things mass healings on demand and all these other supernatural things. They can do that as long as everyone is submitting under them.
Speaker 2:That is so woo, woo Well and it's so funny, because submitting to them in order for high just use that.
Speaker 1:That just makes me look like it doesn't even show that the people who are submitting get any of the benefit out of it. It's just they get the benefit of watching the apostle and the prophet do their thing. They get the benefit of being able to be around them and see as they get the glory. No, that's, that's not it. Where's the fulfillment for the people who are submitting under you and trusting that what you're saying is true and putting all their eggs in their basket for you? What do they get out of it?
Speaker 1:And I know it's not about us, but in this kind of relationship, you should have something in it because you are sacrificing a lot. You're not just sacrificing time, your heart, your energy. You should have something in it because you are sacrificing a lot. You're not just sacrificing time, your heart, your energy. You're sacrificing money, all these things you said he had to pay to be an apostle. You're sacrificing to trust that these people know what they're talking about. So what benefit do you get? Where's your spiritual benefit benefit? And I know that they have their harry potter school for magic, or whatever they call it, and their supernatural school for healings, or I don't remember what they call it, but it sounds harry potter s.
Speaker 2:They they have a. I see I was unaware of that.
Speaker 1:No, yes, they have a school. Bethel has a school where they teach you how to do healings on demand, where they teach you how to do prophecies on demand, where they teach you all those things, the spiritual alignment, all these different spiritual practices. They'll teach you how to do that, and you pay to go to the school, of course, because nothing in this movement is like a university.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I don't know necessarily if it's like a university, but probably something like that. It's probably more like a Harry Potter type school. So, oh, my goodness, I think it's crazy.
Speaker 2:That's. That's my first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, oh man, I watched the documentary on that so did I.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a whole different pony. We can ride it, yeah, I mean, this is just crazy to me, if we're being honest, that they have a school where they're teaching you how to do these things. Not everyone is supposed to do that and it says it in the Bible. Not everyone is going to have the abilities to do miracles and all these different things. Not everyone is supposed to do that. And if you do that, then you negate the Holy Spirit's power to to do what he needs to do to be glorified. He's not going to be glorified if you're giving yourself the I can do this, it's me, me, me, me, me.
Speaker 2:We can't do anything in our power.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean that is something that we always have to fall back on. One, all glory goes to him for everything. I mean because everything is a gift from him, if you really break it down. I mean because everything is a gift from him, if you really break it down.
Speaker 2:But I mean it's I, I can't believe, I'm, I'm shocked that they are teaching people how to prophesy. I just, you can't teach a spiritual gift. I mean you can teach somebody a skill, sure. I mean you can teach somebody a skill, sure, but I mean, if you're teaching somebody to prophesy, that is so contradictory, because a prophecy, I mean, how do you teach?
Speaker 1:You can't teach somebody how to do that properly. And they're not even going to be prophecies biblical type where they're turning you towards Jesus. They're teaching you how to basically tell somebody what they want to hear, how to read, how to tell them what they want to hear, and that's not a prophecy, that's just telling someone what they want to hear in a semi-Christian new age sort of way.
Speaker 2:I was going to say. It's sort of like a New Age psychic kind of feel to it, but with a Christian stamp on it that says now, this psychic is okay. Yeah, you can go to this person.
Speaker 1:I believe they teach Sozo there. Don't quote me on that, but I would believe that they would teach their version of Sozo there. So I mean, with your friends who do want to know Sozo, I would definitely at least give them the heads up about how they do things there, Because Bethel is definitely on the train to the wrong Jesus and the way that they're doing things is wrong spiritually. They're not accurate. The way that they're doing things is wrong Spiritually. They're not accurate. There's Bible verses upon Bible verses in this video that refute the stuff that they say. Seriously, guys, it's only like eight minutes and 50 something seconds long. Just watch it and it'll sum up these two episodes. Basically it's it's a powerful short video. You could share it with everybody. It's helpful, it's honest.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, I think, for someone who's super interested in finding out more too. I haven't gotten the book and I haven't read it, but I have. Obviously, there's a lot of people out there who have said good things about Holly Pivock's book, so I loved that book, did you?
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, yeah, it was. It was very powerful for me to hear and yeah, it's. It's a great resource too, and you can find the audio book if you'd rather listen to us. What I did? Yeah, I didn't. I didn't have time to read at that point in my life, so it's funny.
Speaker 2:I'm. I am an author and I prefer audiobooks. Yeah, yeah, literally wrote a book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean there's there's so much more. We could go into this for I don't know how many more episodes, but since this is the last episode and we're getting dangerously close to the end of it, do you have anything else from any of the research you've done? That really was something you wanted to discuss, and what would that be?
Speaker 2:No, and I think again, I just lean people back to bounce everything against scripture. If it doesn't seem to pass that initial sniff test, like you said, bounce it against scripture. If it doesn't seem to pass that initial sniff test, like you said, bounce it up in scripture. And if scripture doesn't support it, then please look deeper. You know it's so easy to get pulled into these things and, like you were saying, they're teaching people how to do miracles on demand. You know that's something that sozo is. You know that's when miracles were performed and the greek word sozo is in the new testament over a hundred times, and so I know that's kind of where that stems from. But miracles cannot be done on demand. That is the power of the holy spirit, that is god. There is not a six-step guide performing miracles. It's not some oh gosh. What's that yellow book that we used to read? To sum up, the books that we didn't read in school.
Speaker 1:Oh, cliff Notes or something, cliff Notes and it was something for dummies. Yeah, yeah, sozo NAR for dummies, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, healings for dummies, something I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, healings for dummies healings for dummies.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, that's funny, it just opened it up there are nine blank pages. That's awesome. That's awesome, oh, but no, just really. And I go back to.
Speaker 2:I mean, what the heart of the message is is for us to be the hands and feet of jesus. That is what we are to show people and, if I'm being honest, that is what brought me to christ. Was I mean? Well, no, I can't say that's what brought me to Christ.
Speaker 2:But after I had the Holy Spirit intervene in my life and I came to faith when I saw the people of the church being the hands, these false prophets, these, you know, all of these people that you know I want to say ill-intentioned, you know. I think there are, of course, like I said, people that aren't ill-intentioned about it, but I think there are some that are. And you know, just, if we go back to being the hands and feet of Jesus, we won't steer in the direction of the ill-intentioned people. If we can be overpowering of that voice of the ill-intentioned and we can show people what the true Bible says, what the true word of God says, and show them what a caring, loving relationship with Jesus looks like, that is going to speak volumes over anything that NAR puts out, because that's going to be a real Holy Spirit driven God, driven Jesus driven experience that people have and that is going to trump NAR every single time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, before we land this plane, there's a few people that I want to just explain that they are really big into this NAR and that you should vet them, vet their content, all that, Look through it with a discerning heart and mind. That would be Bill Johnson, who is the quote-unquote apostle of Bethel Church. Rick Joyner I've just been recently hearing about his book the Final Quest man. That is a doozy of a book. He said he went to heaven and he got new revelation and talked to angels and deceased people, which are things we're not supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1:And there's just so much problematic in that book. And I do have links that I'm going to be putting in the show notes to Dawn Hill's podcast episode she did recently. She was discussing the book by its sections and everything, so they're longer form but they're very detailed and explain all the different problems within it. And Don Hill is the podcast host for the Love Six Scribe. It's one of my favorite ones for all this kind of content because she used to be an NAR prophet, so she's got some stories to tell.
Speaker 2:Some interesting perspective there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kim Clement. I'm not sure who that is, and Lou Engle is another one. I'm also not really sure who he is. Honestly, the only one I knew of really was Bill Johnson for Bethel, because he's spearheading this whole thing. But since I've been listening to Don Hill, she's been talking a lot about Rick Joyner and she does talk about some of the others, so they're probably in there as well, but just there's plenty more out there. Those are the ones that were mentioned in this got questionsorg video. There are the other videos that I sent to Amelia that will also be in the show notes. Those probably had some other names dropped.
Speaker 1:You could do your own research and look it up and I'm sure you'll find it. As we had mentioned, a lot of the people who follow this are in various churches, various denominations. I know that some of it has seeped into some parts of my church. We don't really listen to Bethel anymore at our church, but we still do some elevation and all this stuff, and when I'm listening to the music I can see and hear it and it makes me cringe. There's just certain things that different churches are implementing and they may not even know it.
Speaker 1:So if you're feeling off about something in your church. Take a deeper look, like Amelia was saying, look into it more. Look at the Bible, see if it lines up with Scripture If it doesn't. Look deeper and figure out what is going on there, because you don't want to get sucked into something that isn't right and that is very important to do the work. It's going to be hard. It might be awkward to alienate some things or some people if you have to, but just do it in love, and do it in love for Jesus most importantly, because that's who we're here on this earth to glorify.
Speaker 2:Right, with a discerning eye and a discerning heart, and if you keep Jesus at the forefront, I don't think you can really go wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you again, Amelia, for this stimulating conversation. I had so much fun and laughed so much while talking about something so irritating.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I do love talking to you.
