Honest Christian Conversations
A weekly podcast dealing with cultural and spiritual issues within the Christian faith.
Want to be a guest on Honest Christian Conversations? Send Ana Murby a message on PodMatch, here: https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/honestchristianconversations
Honest Christian Conversations
What is the New Apostolic Reformation? Pt.1
Could the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) be redefining the landscape of modern Christianity? Join me and Amelia Walden, author of "From Jew to Gentile: A Transformation from Religion to Relationship," as we question the impact of this controversial movement.
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Listen to Amelia's episode from Season Three: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com/the-power-of-a-personal-relationship-with-god/
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Welcome to Season 4, episode 1 of Honest Christian Conversations. Today I'm joined by my new friend, amelia Walden. You might remember her from Season 3, episode 11, discussing her book From Jew to Gentile A Transformation from Religion to Relationship. In today's episode, we are dipping our toes into the choppy waters of New Apostolic Reformation. What is that, you might ask. Stay tuned to find out, as Amelia and I uncover issues within this doctrine that you may not even realize you could be participating in.
Speaker 1:In the show notes there will be a way to contact me if you want further information on today's topic or if we didn't answer all the questions or concerns you may have, let's get to it Before the episode starts. Make sure you follow the show so you never miss another episode. Amelia, I am so excited to have you back on the show. This is going to be a very dynamic episode on NAR, which is New Apostolic Reformation. But before we get into that, why don't you share with everybody who isn't familiar with you because they haven't listened to your episode from season three, which they should go back and do so right now, or they can wait until after the show whatever. Back and do so right now, or they can wait until after the show. Whatever, they should just listen to it, because it's a very good episode on relationship with God over religion. So for those who don't know who you are yet, will you give us a little tidbit?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Well. First of all, thank you for having me back. I'm very excited to be here and to get into the NAR discussion, but for those who haven't listened to the episode, my name is Amelia Walden. I'm very excited to be here and to get into the NAR discussion, but for those who haven't listened to the episode, my name is Amelia Walden.
Speaker 2:I'm the author of a book that just came out titled From Jew to Gentile A Transformation from Religion to Relationship, and with that I would like to state that I am not using Jew and Gentile as definitions. I'm using them as metaphors to signify religion and relationships. So I always clarify that with people. But I am a wife, a mother. I'm not a Bible scholar. I didn't go to Bible college. So I say all that to preface. I only had and I even shouldn't say only because I had my life changed four years ago when I walked into a church in 2020 and everything just completely transformed for me and it's been wonderful ever since. So everything that I know I've learned since then and I just try to spread God's love and grace and kindness with everybody who really will listen to me talk.
Speaker 1:So that's a little bit about me Wonderful and, yes, you did the metaphor thing with Jew and Gentile very beautifully. I must say I enjoyed the book a lot, thank you. All right, let's get into it. We are going to be discussing the topic of NAR, or New Apostolic Reformation, so I sent you some videos on it because you didn't know anything about it and you wanted to know, so I shared my resources that I have been learning through and you have some questions, comments, and just let it rip.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, so my first note that I wrote down when I was watching these videos was I'm shocked. I was floored at what some of these claims that were being made. I was shocked at the claims. So the Wake Up Olive incident I think that one stuck out to me the most. Now I feel like I vaguely remember that happening, but I also don't feel like I was in the church as much when that was happening and I think I saw it on social media, but it wasn't anything that I was following or tracking.
Speaker 1:I can't even remember if I it feels familiar. I know I probably saw some random post someone posted and I just scrolled through because it wasn't a thing that was on my radar.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah, and that really just floored me, that I mean, of course everyone grieves differently and it's tragic. The loss of a child, I would never take that away from any parent. It's absolutely tragic and I can't imagine what they were feeling. But to the loss of a child, I would never take that away from any parent. It's absolutely tragic and I can't imagine what they were feeling. But to have the leaders of the church stand up behind them and declare that this little girl was going to be resurrected was something that just floored me, because we look to the leaders of our church to give us guidance. I know I look to my pastor when I have biblical questions to answer those questions, for me, to give me guidance, because I don't know everything and, like I stated, I didn't go to Bible college, but our pastors and our leaders did, and so you know they are our source of information a lot of the times. You know, of course the Bible should be the ultimate source of information, but, in layman's terms, pastors break it down for us.
Speaker 2:And the fact that these pastors are coming out and claiming that they have new revelations that are critical to Christian life listening to that I was like, well, what about the book of Revelation? Where does that leave us with that book? If your revelation is it, then what about the book of Revelation? I mean, I think I could just go on and on. I was with the claims that they were making. They're pretty outlandish. But I also saw how it seeped into regular Christian life through the music. There were lyrics that were talked about in some of the videos where I was like I don't really have a problem with that lyric. That were talked about in some of the videos where I was like I don't really have a problem with that lyric. And then I forget who said it, but it was a counterpart to Holly Pivock, doug Givitt.
Speaker 1:Dr Doug Givitt maybe.
Speaker 2:Yes, and he's at Biola University, biola.
Speaker 1:University yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he was saying we're equivocating the words that are being used, so prayer has a different meaning when it's really not supposed to mean that, and so there's this equivocation going on. That's confusing to people, and I mean I felt it even in my research so I could see how new Christians are being swept into this movement and being taken hold of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for those who may not be familiar with the Wake Up Olive thing, what it was is a movement that started at Bethel Redding in California. One of I believe they were worship pastors there. Their two-year-old daughter passed away in the middle of the night suddenly. Instead of them having the chance to grieve her and their loss, the church I don't want to put words in their mouth, but it feels like they just kind of took this opportunity to use their platform to say look at what we can do. And they did this big movement called Wake Up Olive, where they were decreeing and declaring that God is going to resurrect her, that they have the power to resurrect her. And they did this for a while. I don't remember how long it was, but it was in the news. It was all over the place. They were trying to get people from other churches on board through hashtags and all this stuff.
Speaker 2:And I think they said it was four to six days before they actually came out with a funeral date and stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so I mean, they didn't resurrect her. They had, like you just said, they had a funeral date and it was a heartbreaking situation to hear. Yeah, I just, I mean I feel for those parents.
Speaker 2:I feel so. Even speaking about it, it hurts your heart as mom. I mean it really. Right now it'll bring tears to my eyes to think about something like that. But to then turn around and push this agenda that you are going to resurrect this little girl, I mean one false hope. I think that's, you know, a lot of what is being pushed by the NIR. Is this false hope, this experiential? And that's not to say that we can't experience God, because we all do experience God and we all experience him in different ways. But they put that above scripture and they put that above the Bible. They're making these experiences what people are striving for, these miracle working experiences, and that's just not what the Bible says working experiences, and that's just not what the Bible says.
Speaker 1:I mean, of course, miracles happen but that shouldn't be what we are seeking after. Yeah, exactly, did you know that they made a song during that time of the wake up, all of thing? No, they mentioned it. Holly Pivick and Dr David Givitt mention it in their book Counterfeit Kingdom, which, if anyone's listening to this hasn't heard of the book, you should definitely read it. I listened to it through audiobook a while ago and that was mind blowing. I mean, it's kind of like if you were to listen to one of their podcasts. It's about the same thing, only it goes a little more in depth than what they can actually talk on a podcast for. But I'm trying to remember the name of the song. I don't want to say the wrong one, so maybe I'll look it up after this and I will put it in the show notes. I want to say Graves into Gardens, but I don't even know if I think that's elevation worship.
Speaker 1:Anyway, it's a song garden is um elevation right. Is it elevation? Or is it brandon lake? I have no idea they're. They're all the same to me.
Speaker 2:I know I'm trying I wish I hear um Olive come out of that grave, come alive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know they did. Yeah, maybe it's come alive.
Speaker 2:Come alive. Yeah, because it says come alive, paul McClure. Wake up Olive Hashtag wake up Olive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's just when I heard that in the book, when they were talking about that, that just made me so angry, feeding off of these people's poor emotions. They just lost their two-year-old. They need to grieve. They don't need false promises. They don't need you to use this as a platform to elevate yourself, to get the world to know who you are. They needed the support of their church. Like you were saying, the church leaders are important. They're there to help us spiritually. They're our shepherds. They're supposed to shepherd us, and when we're in our moments of need, they need to be there to give us the truth. And I just really feel like they failed them big time with that. And I don't even know where the people are now. I don't know if they still go to the church or whatever that. And I don't even know where the people are now. I don't know if they still go to the church or whatever. But yeah, so what other takeaways do you have?
Speaker 2:Well, and so I know this is very strong language to use. But when I was taking notes and basically writing down my thoughts as I was listening to these podcast episodes, I kept thinking cult language, because I don't want to say that NAR is a cult, I don't want to get into that because I'm not that well-versed in that but the language that the pastors are having revelation that is critical to Christian life, that they are the ones that are in connection with God, that they have a special relationship, that they hold this apostleship quote unquote that the people of the church should submit to their authority that just sounds like a cult to me. I mean it. Really. That's what the leaders of cults do. You need to submit to my authority, and the only authority we need to be submitting to is God's, not a human, not a pastor of any sort.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. And for those who don't fully know what NAR teaches or anything, there was a video that I sent her and all these videos that we're referencing are going to be in the show notes for anyone who wants to listen to them on their own, do their own research or whatever. They'll be in the show notes. But one of the videos was a gotquestionsorg video and it was called what is the New Apostolic Reformation, and Pastor Nelson did. I think it was an eight-minute video that was so packed full of everything that I pretty much almost transcribed the whole thing. After a while I was like I can't do this anymore. My hand hurts because I actually wrote it down.
Speaker 1:But I want to try to explain in a nutshell what NAR is and what they believe. So I am going to be quoting some of the video from Pastor Nelson in gotquestionsorg. So this is a quote. It says NAR is an unbiblical religious spiritual movement that emphasizes experience over scripture, mysticism over doctrine and modern day apostles with quotation marks over the plain text of the Bible. That's a snippet of what they are. I have all these other notes but again, if you really want to know specifically what it is, you can look at the video. It's only eight minutes long, but I just don't want to devote my whole time to reading it, like this is a lecture, because it was a very detailed video. So you should definitely go and check that out for yourselves if you want to know a lot more about it. But I'm sure with our conversation we'll be hitting on some other topics about it anyway, right.
Speaker 2:Well, and I was going to say I mean even I think that after watching the videos and hours of research on my part, I still feel like I could dive deeper into it. So you know, of course this can be a jumping off point for listeners to go and have a deeper understanding of NAR, because we obviously can't cover all of the topics. But I think a big one for me, bill Johnson, who he's with Bethel, I believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's the pastor of Bethel Reading.
Speaker 2:Okay, the pastor, and so he has a claim out there. Or apostle, I don't know what he is. Yeah, whatever he is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they believe apostles are above pastors and pastors are supposed to submit to the apostles. So I guess he's, that's what it was Apostle Apostle Bill Johnson. But I don't even think he calls himself that. He just says everyone calls him that. He just doesn't correct him. So it's like he's inadvertently saying yeah, I am one, but I just don't say it myself Not to cut you off. There you go.
Speaker 2:No, that's okay, Because that's just. I mean it. Even in the videos they talked about the Passion Translation and how the word changed to the first 12 apostles, where that word first isn't actually in scripture. It's not written in the Hebrew or the Greek, and so they're putting it in there in that passion translation, which is very much associated with NAR, and for any of the listeners out there, it is still on the Bible app. So if you go to the Bible app I actually looked it up today that passion translation is there and so people can still find it. I mean, and it's selling like hotcakes, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is not even a translation. It's them putting their doctrine into the Bible, which is clearly something the Bible has told us not to do, right?
Speaker 2:Well, and it's claiming that Jesus set aside his divine power on earth. So we must be able to do these miracles as well, and that was something that was just mind blowing to me. Now, of course, I think miracles can happen. Today, we serve a miracle working God. Miracles are absolutely possible. The Holy Spirit is alive and active.
Speaker 2:Today, I believe that people do have prophetic gifts. I believe that all of the fruits of the Spirit are given by the Holy Spirit. You know, I think we definitely have those spiritual gifts today in our world. But that is a caveat with. There are not prophets today like there were in the Bible. There are not apostles today like there were in the Bible. The Bible clearly defines what an apostle is and they were commissioned by Jesus.
Speaker 2:And these people are claiming to be commissioned by Jesus, but there's, where's the proof? Yeah, how do you prove that? And it's something we have actually spoken with friends about. We call it the God card. Because you're pulling the God card? Because how can I say that you're wrong when you're saying that God is giving you these things? I don't know what God's giving you. That's not my position to say that you're wrong, but at the same time, the Holy Spirit in us also gives us discernment and you can kind of sniff it out at times. But yeah, me and my friends like to call that the God card, because it's like well, how can I argue with you? You're claiming that God gave it to you, you know.
Speaker 1:Who doesn't love free? I know I do. That's why I created a free seven-day devotional for those who want to go deeper with God. It's a short devotional full of encouragement, guidance and impactful Bible verses related to everyday struggles we all go through. I know you will love this devotional as much as I enjoyed writing it, and since it's digital, you can do it anywhere, anytime, Perfect for the person always on the go. Get the free devotional when you sign up for my mailing list. The link is in the show notes. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 1:And one of the videos I was listening to was also talking about that that you know it's like you can't question them if they say that. And then a lot of the followers you know say don't touch the Lord's anointed. That's a little extreme. How do we know that they're actually anointed? Where's the fruit? Where's where? Is it shown that that's a thing?
Speaker 2:Well, and they're saying too that if it, for instance, this wake up olive incident when is it shown that that's a thing NAR church stating that Trump would be reelected in 2020. And when that didn't happen, then they were saying that enough people didn't come and have declarative prayer to make that happen. And so they're saying that these prophets can make mistakes. And it's like, hang on, because that's not what the Bible said, the prophets aren't making mistakes and then retracting their statements. I mean, that's not biblical at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and they don't take ownership for the mistakes. It's someone else's fault. And I mean, isn't that the story of our lives? Since the origin of sin, we've been blaming forever and ever, and we're still doing it. Rather than just taking ownership of our own mistakes and saying you know what, maybe I'm not what I thought I was, you know? I feel like that would give someone more respect for you than to just say, oh well, not enough people were doing this or they didn't have strong enough that Humble yourself, yes, humble yourself. Pride comes before the fall, exactly.
Speaker 2:That's yeah, man, but the declarative prayer they're talking about is almost like a superstitious type of prayer, which I think the rhetoric is so divisive and I'll use that as a segue because even Christians today, I mean, they're being divided by this rhetoric that you know well. You stand on this side of the belief and I stand on this side, and of course there's different parts of Christianity. Of course, out there I mean Pentecostal, presbyterian, you know, you got all the other types of Christianity, but this is really in the, I guess, the non-denominational part of the church and it's dividing that and it's like, isn't that the plan of the enemy? To divide us so that we aren't as strong. I mean, he's coming along and he's planting little seeds of you know, just like he did in the garden. Did God really say that? Did God really do you really believe X, y and Z? And that's what's happening with this, you know, is these small seeds being planted through music, through their teachings, and they're seeping into the church today and dividing us. And so I'll talk about the part of the book that I actually have.
Speaker 2:And I realized when I started watching these videos on NAR that I had actually taken part in a NAR practice. I went back and I do state pretty clearly in the book that I don't believe that miracles can happen on demand through a step-by-step process. So I am firm in that that I don't believe that. But once I realized that I had almost been pulled into this and felt the need to write a letter to my readers, anyone who's going to purchase the book and I'm going through that with the publisher right now but I'm writing a letter basically stating that I don't. This is not condoning NAR, this is not supporting their mission, this is not belief, but it was the practice of sozo. And I also will state the people that did the sozo I love them very much and they are not they're not bad people at all, but they had the best of intentions and it's really what I experienced isn't what Bethel Church Reading is pushing.
Speaker 2:It was a very prayerful meeting and that's really all it was. It was a like an hour long prayer of us asking the Holy Spirit to be with us and to enlighten us on certain situations, as we, like walked through different parts of my life, so still think that what we did was okay. But the practice of sozo quote unquote where they're basically saying it's a step by step guide to healing and to be healed, and that God wants us to be well, and if we are not well, then something is wrong and needs to be fixed, and sozo is the way to do that. Now, that, to me, is mysticism, right, you know. Of course God wants us to be well, but we also have to struggle to learn lessons. So, yeah, it's easy to fall into that, just as it is legalism. I mean, we really we've got to be on guard all the time because there are lions crouching at the other side of the door waiting to just, I mean, take your beliefs and twist them in a way that very easily becomes unbiblical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was actually doing a little research on Sozo because I don't know enough about it, but I have heard about it. I listened to a lot of podcasts from people who used to be in the new age and they talk about it and all these other people. So I've been listening to it and I took some notes and it kind of was talking about how it's Well, doreen Virtue is a former psychic. I believe she was very heavy into Christian science as well and she just became a believer at 50 something years old, so it wasn't too long ago that she became a believer. But she was talking about it with someone who used to do Sozo and they were talking about how they do it and I guess one of the questions that the man said that they're taught to ask is which person of the Trinity do you most align with, or just kind of what is the word? Why can't I remember it? Do you most relate to? I guess, almost like if it were a personality quiz type of thing which Harry Potter house are you in?
Speaker 1:If someone were to ask me that, I wouldn't know how to answer that, because I'm made in the image of God but I'm not God and I'm not Jesus and I'm not the Holy Spirit, so I wouldn't know how to answer that. But he said, depending on how they answer is how they will pray that whichever entity you picked, they would pray to that one and say reveal things to us. And all these things. And Doreen was saying it sounds a lot like channeling, like they're the go-between between you and whichever entity. I don't even know if that's the proper word to use for the Trinity, but whichever member of the Trinity you chose, they're channeling, I guess, is what she said. It felt like and the guy said it's kind of like that.
Speaker 2:It's not something that I experienced when I was doing it. The question wasn't asked, and that's where I get into. Like I still have relationships with these people that conducted the SOZO and they're not NAR, and so like I want to say they're very loving Christians and very well-intentioned. So I think there's like different facets of it almost.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure that if you do it through, bethel is probably how you're going to get into more of the mysticism. If you're someone who's not super familiar with it but you've heard about it and you just kind of learn a little bit. Maybe each person just kind of tweaks it to their own way of doing it or whatever. You know, like I don't think a lot of the people have deep seated intentions to lead people astray or that they are trying to, you know, make someone's life worse or whatever, or lead them down a wrong path. I think these people genuinely believe that they're helping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they have the heart and intention to help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think that's why a lot of the people who do have bad intentions are feeding off of them, because they see those vulnerabilities. They just want to be a helpful person. They want to do what they can to help. They just want to be a helpful person. They want to do what they can to help. They want to glorify God.
Speaker 1:So let's lead them down this path and tell them this is what's going to do it, even though it might not, because the whole practice of sozo, I guess, is just like a one and done kind of thing, and I think that's where you were talking about mysticism. That's what it gets into, is a mysticism sort of way. You know, like it can all poof, it'll be gone. Everything that you're ever worried about or your childhood trauma is just gone with this one session of healing, with quotation marks. That's not how it works. That's not how it's supposed to work. The Bible says we're supposed to suffer. So I don't understand why people just want to say, nope, sorry, the Bible is wrong. Let's just do it this way. You can one and done and then you're good.
Speaker 2:There's steps to healing. If you take these six magical steps, then somehow you're going to be healed, and that just I mean no, it doesn't talk about that anywhere in the Bible. But the Greek word and that's again where this is it's like a sneaky thing that's coming in, because the word sozo is actually used in the Bible over 100 times. In the Greek translation it means healing. That's where it's coming from, um, but when you were talking it, it made me think back to my notes of from absolute power corrupts absolutely, and these people that are at Bethel, I really think it's almost a power play to be known. You know, like you said, pride, um, but and it's such a weird reference, but my social psychology degree really just kicked into high gear when I was listening to all of this. But have you ever heard of the Stanford Prison Project?
Speaker 1:I don't think so Do tell.
Speaker 2:So it was a project at Stanford shocking, but psychology department did this project where they basically set up a fake prison and they assigned some of the students as prison guards and they assigned some of the students as inmates, but they gave the prison guards absolute authority over these inmates and over the course of time, and this was, you know, I want to say it was a few weeks, maybe a few days, it was it was an extended period of time where they were conducting this experiment and the prison guards, because they had that absolute power, they started becoming abusive and it was like all of these people knew they were participating in a psychological experiment, but something switched in their brains when they were participating and given this authority, given this power, that made them continue and then keep compounding on top of that, because it was that, I think, that surge or that adrenaline maybe, of power, but it just becomes so corrupting and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I may have heard about that study. It sounds kind of familiar. But yeah, you're absolutely right. And I mean Bethel's running the NAR show. I don't want to say it started with them but it became popular with them and they're feeding off of it and because of that, people are being led astray through their music, because you can't have the music without them putting the doctrine in. I mean, that's the whole point of worship. Music is we're trying to sing to God and they're singing to the God that they believe in. So it's definitely something to keep in mind. If you are listening to Bethel music, what are you listening to? Read the lyrics, read your Bible and see if they match up, and if they don't, then perhaps you should abandon that ship, right.
Speaker 2:Well, and I actually I did look up some of the lyrics because I know that I've. I'm on the worship team at our church and I play keys every once in a while. I don't sing nobody wants to hear me sing but I do play piano, and so I had seen Bethel music. I know before to play piano and so I had seen Bethel music. I know before one of the lyrics in their songs, which my first takeaway was the goodness of God song. It was so sad because I love that song, I love that song so much and I'm like, oh, that one you know. But again, that's a twisting because God is obviously good, the goodness of God, like we should sing about the goodness of God. But that's not where I was going with this.
Speaker 2:The lyric I opened my mouth and miracles start breaking out, and it's like they are talking about that declarative miracle working power, and they're saying that they have this divine power that was given to them. Them. And the one I said earlier where I was like, well, you know I could, I don't really have a problem with that lyric was don't tell me he can't do it, you know, and that's in a different song. That's not after the open my mouth. Miracles come out, but you know, don't tell me he can't do it. And it's like well, you know I've gone on an atheist podcast. You know it had the attitude of don't tell me he can't do it. I serve a miracle working God. He absolutely can. God can perform miracles at any time, and so that's where that small little twist came.
Speaker 1:I talked about that song on one of my episodes during season two. Oh, I can't remember if it's episode two or maybe it was episode three, and yeah, I've never actually heard that song before I started researching for my podcast. But yeah, their songs aren't overly. Every single thing or every single song is terrible and you shouldn't listen. That's how they get you in. That's the same thing with Hillsong, elevation, jesus Culture, all these people who take their page from Bethel. They all do the same kind of things. Their songs are catchy. They have some biblical truth in them. Even the songs that have some unbiblical stuff also has some biblical stuff in it, because if it was all not passing the sniff test, you're not going to listen, which means they aren't going to grow, so they have to filter it in. And because they're so really good at making the songs emotionally felt, it makes it hard when you realize I can't listen to this anymore. I mean, think about your most favorite non-Christian song that you've ever listened to and you become a Christian and then you're like I can't listen to that anymore.
Speaker 1:I used to listen to Lil Wayne and Eminem on the explicit because I didn't want to obscure the beauty of what they came up with. I was a big Marilyn Manson fan. It's like I can't listen to that stuff now. I would never listen to that stuff now because I know it's wrong.
Speaker 1:And I'm constantly going through my music and listening to songs and I'll hear something and I'm like I got to get rid of this song, even if I like the beat and I'm a big beat person. I listen to a lot of techno music, so if I hear lyrics that I don't really like, I will delete it, whether it's hard or not. And there's been some songs where I'm like that's just one word. There's one song that keeps haunting me by Mitchell Musso. I don't know if anyone knows who he is. He used to be a Disney star and then he became crazy and he's got a lot of music with bad lyrics.
Speaker 1:But this song didn't have a warning on it. So I listened to it and in the beginning it's got one bad word and I tried to listen to it for a while without feeling the conviction. But I felt the conviction and I was like I got to get rid of the song and it was painful and it's still kind of painful because I'll listen to it in my brain. But then I'll hear that lyric and I'm like that's why I got rid of the song. God, please help me to not think about the song anymore. And that's what we do with our Christian music too, because I'm listening to the lyrics of my Christian music, my worship while I'm listening to it, and if it hits me like this doesn't sound very, very biblical, I'll shut it off too. But it's hard when you like the beat, when you like how it makes you feel, and that's how they get you and we have to look past that, you know, paying attention to that conviction that you have.
Speaker 2:And that goes back to the relationship piece, because God will convict different people of different things and it's never our place to say that as we felt a conviction, then you know somebody else has to. We know when God's convicting us. I actually had this, I'll say, discussion with somebody because of I was listening to Panic at the Disco and I really, you know, I just I love my childhood music but I've never been convicted or felt God's conviction when I've been listening to it. I will listen to the you know the radio edited version, yeah, but I'll still listen to the music because you know it brings back memories for me and stuff. But not to say, just because I feel that then everyone else should feel that you have your own personal walk with Jesus and trust me when he convicts you, you will know.
Speaker 1:There is no escaping it. Yeah, Like that song that I was talking about. I really love that song and I had battled with God for months about it. I'd wake up in the middle of the night feeling sick because I'd wake up hearing the song in my head, and not just the, the whole song. My brain didn't skip past the beginning of the song with the bad word in it and just do the rest of it and be like, oh see, it's a nice song, whatever it's like no, my mind would go through the whole song and I'd hear the song lyric and I'm like that's a bad word, I can't listen to that.
Speaker 1:If my kids were listening to it, I'd tell them to turn it off and eventually I just got tired of having the constant conviction and I'd get rid of it. And I even got rid of it once and then brought it back because I was like I can handle it. And then I was like no, I can't. And, like you said, you'll know when God is actually convicting you and saying no, this isn't happening anymore. He makes it pretty clear. He's not here to be vague or anything. If he wants you to do something or doesn't want you to do something, you will know that that is him telling you to do it and that was kind of the takeaway from season two when I did my whole music series.
Speaker 1:Is that my personal conviction is that I don't really listen to Elevation, Hillsong, Jesus Culture or Bethel anymore. I just can't, and anyone who I know is associated with them. I will either just cut them off completely if I don't like the songs or I pick and choose the songs because I know they're biblical. For example, I know that Kerry Jobe and Corey Asbury I think that's how you say his name, Corey Asbury yeah, they're associated with these people too, Are they really? But yes, I love Corey. He's so funny. I know he's got great songs and I really love his song Sparrow. I still listen to it because I feel it's a biblically sound song.
Speaker 1:So, I will listen to it. That's probably the only song by him that I really listen to. But Shane and Shane does some stuff with, not Bethel, I want to say it's Elevation maybe I don't remember which one they were collaborating with, but that kind of upset me a little bit, because I really like a lot of their older stuff. But I still listen to it.
Speaker 1:And you just have to make that decision yourself. You have to do the research yourself. You have to do the work yourself to figure out what is God telling you, Is this doctrinally sound or not? And then you make that decision because, like you said, it is your personal relationship with God. You have to make it your own. You can't take my opinion, can't take your opinion. Maybe you have heard the song Volcano by Mitchell Musso and that one word does not bother you and you can listen to it. That's you. That's the conviction God has not given you. I don't know if my conviction that I have for that song is man-made because of my legalistic background or if it's God, but whatever the reason is, I have it and I get a pit in my stomach if I listen to it now. So why am I going to put myself through that torture?
Speaker 2:You have to listen to that pit in your stomach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I was like I can't feel sick because I want to hear this song, so I'm just not going to listen to it.
Speaker 2:Well, and there's absolutely songs out there where I felt the same way. I can't listen to them anymore because there has been a pit in my stomach where I'm like, oh man, this is really not a good song. So there's definitely songs that I've listened to that I've kicked to the curb Not all of them, but there's definitely been some. You said you're a big beats person. So am I I. Honestly, I love rap music.
Speaker 1:And so you know, I have some Christian rappers. I'll introduce you to yes.
Speaker 2:So I love KB and we listen to him all the time. There's, you know, a couple of Christian rappers, but it is very easy to, if you like, a certain type of music. There are Christian artists that have good messages and they are reaching the gospel, they are sticking to biblical principles and they still have good beats. It's still good music. You know it is possible to find it. You might have to seek it out a little bit, but you know, because obviously it's not mainstream, it's, you know, the world is sort of against us at times, unfortunately, but that's, you can seek it out and you can find it.
Speaker 2:But knowing your scripture, knowing biblical principles, knowing your theology, studying it, having a relationship with God, all of that plays into your discernment of what is real and not real. And I think it's a continuous walk. I mean, just like what I fell into of doing an NAR practice. You know it wasn't exactly the same like we've talked about, but you'll called um sozo. I was still on my walk and that was a year, a year and a half ago, I mean, and you're constantly learning new things and that's okay. It's okay to, you know, have these ebbs and flows in your relationship with God. That's going to happen. So, just because you can, you know you feel a conviction also, don't take that and be like I'm a bad person, you know, and just stay in that, like, do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you got to keep going. It's a journey. It's going to take some time. I mean, we're not going to know everything. There's still things we don't know and there's still things that our audience isn't going to know, because we're going to have to land the plane right now and we will pick this conversation up next time because there's so much we didn't discuss yet about the doctrine of NAR and its problematic themes. So make sure you stay tuned for next week, because you won't want to miss the conclusion to this talk. And if you've been encouraged by today, dig deeper, do your homework, read the Bible, make the decisions that you feel maybe God's already convicting you on just with what we've talked about here, it's definitely, it's important. So, yeah, do your research. That is the theme for this season. Do the research. Yes, college is power. Yes, all right, amelia, until next time.
Speaker 2:Until next time, I can't wait to continue the conversation. Yeah, me neither.
