Honest Christian Conversations
A weekly podcast dealing with cultural and spiritual issues within the Christian faith.
Want to be a guest on Honest Christian Conversations? Send Ana Murby a message on PodMatch, here: https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/honestchristianconversations
Honest Christian Conversations
Healthy Ways to Agree to Disagree
James Early, a passionate Bible teacher and the voice behind the "Bible Speaks to You" podcast, joins us for a heartfelt conversation about navigating theological disagreements with empathy. You will find inspiration in his journey of teaching others to think, pray, and love like Jesus while exploring the profound relationship between faith and understanding spiritual truths.
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Have you ever disagreed with someone's theological beliefs? Perhaps you felt compelled to set them straight, but it didn't work out as well as you thought. Fear not. Today's conversation will help you navigate this issue. I am joined by James Early, a Bible teacher and the host of the Bible Speaks to you podcast. He is a delightful man full of passion for sharing the love of Jesus with everyone, regardless of whether you agree with his theology. James also shares a compelling healing moment in his life that will impact everyone who listens, because it's something we can all relate to on some level. Before we start today's episode, james has graciously provided some fantastic Bible resources for my audience, so use the link in the show notes to check those out. Let's get to it Before the episode starts. Make sure you follow the show so you never miss another episode. James. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Why don't you give us an overview of who you are before we start jumping into today's topic?
Speaker 2:Hi. Well, first let me thank you for having me here. It's a real honor to be here with you today and I'll tell you and your listeners a little bit about myself. My name is James Early. Little bit about myself. My name is James Early and I live in Connecticut. I've been married for almost 35 years.
Speaker 2:My whole focus is on helping people really to think and pray and love like Jesus does. That's my overall thing that I do in all my ministry. I'm a Bible teacher. I'm not a pastor or a preacher, I'm just a Bible teacher. I have a ministry at a federal prison.
Speaker 2:I've been going every week since 2008 to the Danbury Connecticut federal prison doing Bible study with men and women and that's been really transformational in my life and has kind of put me on the path for what I'm doing. Now I have a podcast has kind of put me on the path for what I'm doing. Now I have a podcast and I invite your listeners to check it out. It's the Bible Speaks to you. It's been going for about five years and again, I focus on really embracing the mindset of Jesus how to think and love and pray like he did and experience more of what he talked about when he said the kingdom of heaven is at hand. What does that really mean? I think we've barely begun to tap the depths of what he's talking about there. I also do speaking and I have some coaching clients, but again, my overall arching mission is to help people be more like Jesus.
Speaker 1:Nothing wrong with that, that's if we need more of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm also in Connecticut. Are you in Danbury or you just go to that prison?
Speaker 2:I live in Bethel, which is right next to Danbury. Where are you in Connecticut?
Speaker 1:I'm in Southeastern Norwich. Oh yeah, that's cool, cool yeah, and I love that you go into the prisons and teach the Bible there, because that's definitely a need that people have, I mean it makes a big difference to them.
Speaker 2:They really appreciate someone coming in. And my approach is I don't come in and say this is what you have to believe. This is the only way to interpret this particular Bible story or passage. We read it, we talk about it, we share ideas. We're all learning together. I mean, I share my perspective and my experiences or whatever, but we learn together and it's a wonderful way to study the Bible and we try to let the Holy Spirit guide us.
Speaker 1:The name of your podcast is great too, because the Word of God is alive and active and it is speaking to us. We just have to have open ears to hear it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not you or me telling people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's the Bible. The Bible can speak for itself. Yeah.
Speaker 1:God convicts us in different ways. So who are we to say? This is the only way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get it Right right.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, we're going to get into today's topic, which is healing, and we're going to start by having you share your experiences, because you said you've dealt with some actual healings where you can say without a doubt that it was nobody but God, without a doubt that it was nobody but God and I love that you put that in your pod match bio that you know these are miracles, because people throw that word around a lot and I don't think a lot of people know what they're saying or understand what an actual miracle is. So when people have actual miracles, it's hard for us to believe that. You know because somebody has said it I got this great parking spot. It was a miracle. It's like no, that's not a miracle, you just got blessed that day.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I can understand why somebody might think you know, New York, right, right, right, whatever, but I know what you mean. We can use the word a little too loosely sometimes, but maybe, even if we do, I think it's perhaps someone trying to acknowledge God's presence in their lives. And I think that word miracle is interesting to me. I tend to think of when God shows up in my life and something amazing happens. You know, to us it seems like a miracle, but to him it's like perfectly natural.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I think, the more we look at things from God's perspective, it should seem more spiritually natural for those things to happen in our lives, for God to resolve problems, to heal sicknesses or situations, resolve conflicts with relationships, whatever. That should be so totally normal as we turn to God more. But I would like to share some healings I've had, and whether you call them miracles or whether you call them spiritually normal, whatever, I don't care, but I'll just share. And we use the same word, we all did mean different things by it. Anyway, here's an example of something that happened to me. Oh, 25 years ago Our church was having a business meeting and there was a controversial topic that came up.
Speaker 2:The church was divided right down the middle and we were all trying to be polite about our conversations, but we definitely disagreed. I was trying to listen to both sides evenly and each side sort of accused the other one of being deceived and trying to deceive the other side. I mean, it sounds like the political scene in our country right now, where each side only sees their perspective. They can't see anything good about the other side. But we were trying to be polite in our conversation, which I'm grateful for that. But one of the sides and a fellow who was on the board of trustees said well, there was some information that they hadn't copied and printed and shared with everybody else in the church. And I stood up and said, well, you've shared all this stuff from your side, but you haven't shared everything from this other side. And if we don't have all the information from both perspectives, how can we really make a decision? And he stood up with this sacred, sweet voice oh, we didn't mean to ignore, we didn't mean to leave that out, and it just sounded so fake and insincere. I really got upset. When I got home, I was absolutely livid, I just seemed. It seemed so hypocritical, just the whole thing, and I was. I was furious, which is not typical for me, but the injustice of the attitude from both sides, really of each one not really trying to listen to the other side and already deciding they were wrong.
Speaker 2:Well, like within a few days, this growth appeared on my abdomen. It was over a period of weeks and a month or two. It got to about the size of a walnut. It wasn't painful, I did not have it. I didn't go to the doctor for whatever reason. I had two little kids at the time and it kept getting worse and I was praying about it and I realized this is really all that hatred almost manifesting itself on my body. It was coming out of my I don't know how to describe it. Anyway, I felt like that's what really needed to be healed and I called a friend to pray for me because I was scared. It was like I'm too young to die. You don't know. I don't know how malignant or whatever it was, but it was an ugly thing on the side of my abdomen and I have to put a bandaid on it and just so it wouldn't be uncomfortable or whatever. As it kept getting bigger and I kept praying, I realized I had to go on a fast, not from food or whatever, I had to go on a fast.
Speaker 2:From thinking those judgmental thoughts towards fellow church members, I had to see them all in the light of okay, we could all be wrong, but we're all children of God. These are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I need to love them, regardless of what side they take in this issue. And this fellow that I asked to pray for me, he said you know, james, you need to start with the spotless, pure nature of God. God doesn't have any spots on him. There's no hatred or no divisions or divisiveness in God. He's united in his nature of love and purity and wholeness. And so I started thinking about God being untainted by the world's opinions. That was a really powerful prayer and it gave me a sense of peace. And then my friend said okay, now I need you to, because you're made in the image and likeness of God. You need to start seeing yourself that way, as untainted, uncorrupted by the world's opinions. And then he said you need to see those other people that way too in your prayers. And so I really prayed to see through all those human opinions and everything. Anyway, I've, I've cause. I felt like that was really what needed to be healed in my heart and I, really, I really got there. I, I, I felt so much love for everyone in church. I felt so unjudgmental of whichever side of the you know argument they were on. I just, I tried to see past all that and I really felt so much release, a sense of peace, a sense of freedom from that.
Speaker 2:Well, all in this process, this spiritual healing going on in my mind, in my heart, the problem on my side was getting bigger. And one morning and I was using a pretty big Band-Aid. It covered up and it looked like I was going to. If it kept going, I was going to have to get another Band-Aid and I literally stomped my foot on the bathroom floor and I said thus far and no farther, I am not going to use a bigger bandaid.
Speaker 2:I know that God has healed this issue in my heart and it just can't. I don't know. I felt very authoritatively. I was really rebuking this growth on my side. It's even hard to put into words, but I kind of claimed the victory, the spiritual victory that I already had. And the interesting thing is, within a day or two, that growth just started to dissolve and within I don't know a week or so it was basically gone and I saw that as a direct. I didn't do anything different, I didn't treat it with anything. I was completely taking my stand for the healing that God had done in my heart and, um, anyway, that was one of my experiences. I don't see any other explanation for that than God being present in my life and removing first removing the resentment, the hatred, the whatever you want all that anger in my heart. That was the real healing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just going to say that because a lot of times the outward ugliness that we have or the scars or the lumps, those things come from what is inside. Our bodies are crazy awesome the way they are. You could be feeling something inside and someone will see the outside and be like what is wrong with you? And you didn't even know you were showing that there's something wrong with you. So the fact that you had that knot inside of you because you were harboring things and just everything that they were putting on, was also affecting you, because hatred and anger those are toxic traits that easily go to everybody else.
Speaker 1:I know that if one of my kids is cranky, the rest of the family can easily become cranky if we don't put a stop to it. So I totally understand how your body was soaking in all the negativity and on top of that you had your own and once you started letting that go and giving it to God, he was able to do more than just heal the outside. He was able to heal the inside and because he healed the inside, your in quite a while and I think back to it I thought is all about is digging at the root.
Speaker 1:This is how we should be, this is how we should think, and I believe once you start doing that and you start really understanding who God is, you will change from the inside out. People will start seeing differences and they may look like miracles to people, because maybe you were the angriest person in the whole wide world and then the next day someone does something to you and there's nothing there To them. They're going to think that's a miracle because they've grown up with you beating them or whatever it is. And then all of a sudden you're not doing that anymore. They can't explain that as anything other than a miracle. And then they want to know how did this happen? And then you get to share the love of Jesus and you get to share the gospel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so true, and you're right. To the human mind it is a miracle. There's no explanation because the human mind can't understand these things. Paul says the five material senses. We can't see it, we can't taste it, we can't hear. God doesn't communicate that way. I'm butchering that quote 1 Corinthians 2. I hasn't seen, and he's quoting Isaiah, I think. I hasn't seen, ear, hasn't heard. Even the heart or the mind of man can't perceive the things that God reveals to us. It's the spirit that reveals them and when that happens, as I said, it's spiritually, it's divinely natural when we're in tune with God. But if we're just relying on ourselves, it's a totally, totally. And I will even say this Think of the Pharisees who saw Jesus heal people in front of their noses. They couldn't accept that. They saw it was so much of a miracle to them they blocked it out. They said he did that on the Sabbath day. We got to get rid of him. So the human mind, still kind of the self-righteous human mind, I'll say, still kind of acts that way sometimes today.
Speaker 1:Who doesn't love free? I know I do. Who doesn't love free? I know I do. That's why I created a free seven-day devotional for those who want to go deeper with God. It's a short devotional, full of encouragement, guidance and impactful Bible verses related to everyday struggles we all go through. I know you will love this devotional as much as I enjoyed writing it and since it's digital, you can do it anywhere anytime, perfect for the person always on the go. Get the free devotional when you sign up for my mailing list. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll admit that when I was younger, I didn't think much about the spiritual aspects of the Christian faith. I was more legalistic do the right things for the right reasons and don't question it. I didn't grow up believing that the Holy Spirit could do all these things or whatever. I just didn't know enough about healings, all that stuff. I just didn't know enough about healings all that stuff. I just didn't know enough about it. I knew that they were things that happened, but then I'd see Benny Hinn's ministries or whatever. I'd see the people shaking and flopping on the floors and that scared me. I'm like that doesn't seem right or biblical, because I would read the Bible and I don't remember other than the person who had all the demons inside of them cast out. I don't remember anyone really acting like that. So those were things that I was just really closed off to, didn't want to know anything about, didn't care to question. But as I've made my faith my own and have worked through, why do I believe what I believe? I've come to a place where I'm learning about new things. I'm learning what is actually a healthy idea of healing, deliverance, freedom from addictions, all these different things. What the Holy Spirit actually does, who he is, that he is actually a person. He's not a thing to obtain or whatever. He is actually a part of the Trinity. I'm learning all these things now and I just want to make sure that I'm on the spiritual right track. There is no doubt in my mind that God can heal whoever he wants, whenever he wants, however he wants. God is a healer. He will always be a healer. He's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I have no doubts about that.
Speaker 1:Now, my concerns with the idea of a healing ministry is only because I know people and we are flawed, we make mistakes, we make it about ourselves and we forget God, and that's the main problem I have with it is not that God's healing, but you can't tell who's really being healed or who's being used to further someone's ministry because of whatever reason. So I think it's important that if I was listening to a podcast the other day and they were talking about this, you have to question, you have to ask questions. You can't just take someone's word for it. You can't just dismiss them. Like you were saying, in the situation there were people who were fighting for their position, there were people who were fighting against their position and neither of them cared to hear a different side. I believe that's the wrong approach to any possible idea of a false teaching or anything. It is the wrong opinion to just say my opinion's right because I heard this or because that's what I think, without taking the time to talk to the person first, because maybe they're deceived in what they're saying.
Speaker 1:Like I said, we use the word miracles liberally. We don't always know and like you were saying, sometimes people's intentions with using it. We as human beings see certain things as miracles or we see that as an opportunity to give God the glory and that's the only way we can think about it. That's a perspective that I haven't fully thought about in regards to a healing ministry. And you know some of the people who you can clearly tell aren't actually doing miracles, but they're just trying to further their ministry, as opposed to those who really have a heart and believe that they were healed. You got to look at the fruit. You have to look at who they're pointing to after they get it. I mean, the 10 people who were healed, only one of them came back and gave God the glory. Look at him and say, yeah, you have to look at who is giving God the glory after and then talk to them and figure out what actually happened.
Speaker 1:That's a good point yeah, I think that's what a lot of people don't do, is we just have our own opinions, our own thoughts. We just want to stick to our own guns, what we were taught, all this stuff, and we don't take the time to step out of ourselves and look at other people and their perspective and maybe help them along if they do have something wrong. I mean, your story is a powerful, encouraging story of how hate and division can really physically hurt somebody and you not even maybe know that those two things are related until God reveals that to you.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm really grateful for how God to use your word revealed these things to me, and I do just want to say we as a church healed that divisiveness and we are a wonderful unified body now. So I mean, that was years ago, so I don't want to, yeah, no, no, that was a very temporary thing and we worked our way through that because we do all love each other, but we just had different human opinions anyway. But you're right, I think it's important to be in tune with the Holy Spirit I'll just put it that way and we have to be willing to let go of our human opinions, because it's about humility. And actually a recent episode on my podcast was all about the best motive for when you pray for healing, and that is that God is glorified. It's not just to solve your problem, it's like the ultimate motive, I think, is. I mean, your motive might be, well, I want to help someone, or I want someone to experience God's love.
Speaker 2:But Jesus said over and over he said he referred to God as the one who sent him. He said he was always giving God, the Father, credit. He was always saying I didn't come to do my own stuff, I didn't come to teach my own doctrine. I didn't come to do my own will. I didn't come for my own glory. It's all to glorify God, the Father, and that's a pretty good motive. Look at what he did. So I think what I try to help people do is let's follow his example, and in every situation, but in this particular case, it's about everything we do should be to glorify God, and I think it's a righteous prayer. If you're praying for healing, maybe you need to step up God. I pray that this healing will glorify you and will open people's eyes to see that you can heal. It's not about me, it's not about them. This is all about you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with that. God always needs to get the glory he is deserving of the glory.
Speaker 2:And if we're not?
Speaker 1:giving it to him, then we need to check our motives and if he doesn't give us the healing, we need to remember to continue to give him the glory anyways, because he's doing something with that. He's not just going to let you suffer, just to suffer. He's got a plan for that and you have to be accepting and walk through that. Continue to give him the glory.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I have a question for you. In regards to false doctrines or false healings, I guess I'll say the Bible tells us to be discerning, which is where the Holy Spirit comes in. He helps us discern what is right, true and what is not. How would you go about if you hear something that you know is not biblical? Because you, being a Bible teacher, you are constantly in the Word, so you should know very well a lot of the Bible. You're familiar with it, you understand. So when you hear or say something that doesn't seem right, what is your approach in making sure that you maybe not call them out like stand up with a microphone and say you're wrong? But how would you approach what the Bible says, which is being discerning that there's going to be false teachers, there's going to be false healings, all these things that we've been warned about? How do you go about I don't want to say calling out, but just because I can't think of a different word calling out when you see that?
Speaker 2:I hear what you're saying saying Okay, this is a really touchy question because there are people, honest, earnest Christians, who have honest disagreements in doctrine or theology and that sort of thing and each think they're right and the other's wrong. I used to sort of feel like it was my responsibility to try and point out everybody else's mistakes and I have been humbled over many years of realizing that's not necessarily listening for when God is directing me. What to say? Jesus said something really powerful in the Sermon on the Mount about this. He said if you try to take the log out of your brother's eye, no, if you try to take a speck out of your brother's eye, but you've got a log in your eye, you're a hypocrite. He says first you have to deal with your own problems. When I see someone else teaching something that I personally disagree with, I try to look at myself first and I say, okay, why do I think that's wrong? Is there anything, god, in my heart, in my beliefs, that needs to be corrected? And you know what? We could all be wrong a little bit. I don't want to. I don't want to. It's hard to talk about this because what I might perceive as wrong in someone, they are convinced that it's true because of the way they read the Bible.
Speaker 2:An analogy that's helped me a lot is Paul's metaphor of the body. We're all members of the body of Christ, and I've kind of put this in a modern day version. What if you had six iPhones and you taped one to your head, one to your shoulders, one to your waist, one to a knee, one to a foot and one on your back, and turned on the video camera and walked down the street? Your body is going through one event, but each of those six cameras would record a different, the same event from a different perspective. So then you have up on your monitor, on your computer screen, all those six videos, anna, which one is right? They're all the same thing from a different perspective. Especially the one facing backwards Doesn't even see something until it's happened. And if you think of that's the way we are in the body of Christ, we see things differently because we're in a different place. We have a different function in the body of Christ. Now, that analogy only goes so far, because sometimes somebody could be teaching something completely that's not in accord with God's laws. So I have found, you know, I don't think there's just like a little formula answer to your question. I think it is.
Speaker 2:I have to ask God, sometimes in the middle of a conversation I'm having with someone, do I say anything to this? And I'll give you an example. I was at a luncheon for all the volunteers that go to the prison and do Bible work, bible study or services or whatever, and so I was at the table with these two other guys. One is a minister whom I know and I appreciate him and we have wonderful conversations, and another guy from a church and he said something about that I felt like was a man-made doctrine and I said and I said something about. I said, well, I don't, I don't necessarily think that's what the Bible says. And and he laughed and he said you know what we may never know until you know, till we get to heaven. I said yeah and so, but there was. Then there was something else that God told me not to say anything about. Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 2:It's really, I think, a lot of. Here's the thing. I think you need to examine your motive Sometimes. I mean, I know from earlier it used to be oh well, I was coming from a self-righteousness standpoint, like the Pharisees did. They were trying to correct Jesus, you know, because they thought they were right. Well, if self-righteousness is your motive and you think you have to straighten everybody else out, that is not a very good motive. So sometimes a quiet example of living your life is a better rebuke than a bunch of words. I don't know, there's just not a formula. I think there are some honest disagreements on doctrine and I have gotten to the point now where I'm much more interested in what I'll say to somebody sometimes if we're having those kind of a discussion.
Speaker 2:Oh, first let me say I have found that some people have more faith in their doctrine than they do in God. They have a better relationship with their doctrine than they do with God, and that, to me, is wrong, because I think we could all not. Well, even Paul said we see through a glass darkly. He said I don't understand all this completely myself. Well, if Paul said we see through a glass darkly, we don't understand. He said I don't understand all this completely myself. Well, if Paul had enough humility to say that. I think we all need a little more humility. So I kind of hold my doctrine loosely. That's why I've gotten to be.
Speaker 2:My focus is on okay, how does that doctrine? Does that help you love your neighbor as yourself better? Does that help you love God more doctrine? Does that help you love your neighbor as yourself better? Does that help you love God more? Does that help you want to go and minister to the people who are suffering? You said earlier, you know we're judged by our fruits.
Speaker 2:For example, this may be controversial for you or some of your listeners, but I did a podcast earlier this year about why I don't what's the right word adhere to the Nicene Creed, which is like the standard thing. But when you study how that creed originated and the man who was so insistent, he was a nasty man. He hated his enemies that opposed him. He did everything tooth and nail. It was such a political battle. If that's his version of Jesus and that's the result of that, I can't accept that. But the other thing is it says nothing about what we're supposed to do. Jesus said, like we said, you'll be known by your fruits. It's just I believe, I believe, I believe. But Jesus said you can call me Lord, but if you don't do the will of my Father in heaven, you're not going to experience heaven.
Speaker 2:All of this said, my focus now is on what did Jesus tell us to do? How did he tell us to think? How did he tell us to pray? How did he tell us to act and treat other people? Can we love people as much that we disagree with or think are wrong? Can we love them as much as Jesus would have? Can we love them as much as we think, as much as we say we love Jesus? That, to me, is my focus now, and I mean I enjoy good theological conversation and I learn a lot from people I disagree with and maybe they learn something from me. But my focus is on obeying the first two great commandments love God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength, and love your neighbors yourself. Anyway, so that may not be where you wanted to go with that question but that's my honest position.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for your vulnerability and your honesty, because that is necessary to realize that we may not all have it together. We don't want to be legalistic if we're just calling out everything. We should know the Bible, we should know who God is and you should have the fruit. Take the plank out of your eye before you go, try to correct somebody else. These are all biblical things that if you're in your Bible daily, you're reading your Bible you will understand what God is expecting of you and you will know when you should call something out and when you should just pray for that person.
Speaker 1:Or maybe take them aside when they're not with other people and talk to them and just see what they mean by what they said. Maybe they didn't mean it the way that you're thinking it. Maybe they have it wrong. That's another thing where you can't just go and say, oh, they're a bad person. You have to have the humble mindset of saying you know, maybe they just have it wrong, maybe they don't know what they're talking about. Let's them, and I think there's a lot of that probably in the Christian church we're not even aware of.
Speaker 2:I mean think of all the things that have been added over the last 2000 years to what Jesus has actually said, and sometimes in the name of Jesus but not in the spirit of Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I completely agree. Thank you so much, James, for coming on today and giving us an honest, humble perspective on how to approach doctrines or ideas that maybe we aren't familiar with or we're just uncomfortable with, or we feel are flat out wrong. You've given us a different perspective, a godly perspective, on how to approach that and the main takeaway read your Bible, understand who God is, and once you do that, it'll be a lot easier to figure out when you should or shouldn't step in. So thank you so much for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been my pleasure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you.
