Honest Christian Conversations
A weekly podcast dealing with cultural and spiritual issues within the Christian faith.
Want to be a guest on Honest Christian Conversations? Send Ana Murby a message on PodMatch, here: https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/honestchristianconversations
Honest Christian Conversations
Can a Christian Be Demon Possessed?
Former false prophet Dawn Hill reveals an astonishing transformation journey as she unpacks her exit from NAR and Deliverance Ministry. Spending nearly two decades deep within its teachings, Dawn now works to guide others away from similar paths, advocating for a return to traditional scriptural truths.
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Dawn's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@dawnhill1613/videos
Lovesick Scribe Podcast (Audio only): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lovesick-scribe-podcast/id1535754914
Link for Season Four Resources: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com/p/season-four/
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Dawn Hill, the host of Love Sick Scribe, joins me today to discuss a significant and controversial ministry that she was, unfortunately, very familiar with, as she was neck deep into it until God graciously removed the blinders from her, she saw the truth of what she was practicing. Now she spends her time helping others get out. If the suspense of what I'm referring to is killing you already, let's get to it Before the episode starts. Make sure you follow the show so you never miss another episode. Thank you, dawn, so much for coming on the podcast today. I am beyond excited to talk to you because I have been listening to your content for at least since 2020. I've been listening to things, learning things from you, and I'm very excited to talk to you about today's topic. Very excited to talk to you about today's topic. But before we get into this very controversial topic, why don't you give us a brief overview of who you are?
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for inviting me on. I'm really glad to be having this discussion. So, yeah, my name is Dawn Hill and I am a wife, I'm a stay-at-home mom and I have two children that I homeschool, and I'm a blogger and also a podcaster. So the podcast started in 2020, and I had been blogging prior to that.
Speaker 2:And then, for those who aren't familiar with me, I labeled myself as a former false prophet in the movement known as the New Apostolic Reformation and I was under an apostle for a number of years. I was part of this word of faith, nar belief system for almost 20 years of my life, and so what I do now is I spend time trying to help others who are coming out of it mainly women and addressing some of the topics and some of the belief systems in there and going back to scripture and back to the gospel and so trying to make sense of some things and helping others along the way, and I also help co-lead a free women's support group that are women that are coming out of this movement just to provide general support for them, trying to help them find a local church that they can attend, that they're going to get fed and minister to, and, yeah, just basic support for them. So that's pretty much me in a nutshell.
Speaker 1:Awesome, okay, well, we are going to be discussing the deliverance ministry and I know when people hear that they either cringe because they're involved and they don't like people who do talk against it, or they're not into it and they don't like the topic, either because it's uncomfortable and causes arguments, or and they don't like the topic either because it's uncomfortable and causes arguments or they just don't know enough about it.
Speaker 1:So today we have someone who is very knowledgeable on this she's been doing many podcast episodes lately that I've been enjoying listening to about it and you have so much wisdom on this. So I'm pretty much just going to let you do your thing and I will chime in when I can, because you know so much and I want to soak in what you have to say. So what is the deliverance ministry? That's probably where we should start first, for those who actually don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the deliverance ministry actually came about probably in the 60s. It's not an old teaching. Actually it came about in the 60s and it was made popular close around the latter rain movement After that. Actually, derek Prince is one of the main ones that spearheaded this teaching, along with others such as Don Basham, don Dickerson, wynne Worley there are numerous ones that were known, but the Fort Lauderdale Five those were some of the men that were involved in that, but Derek Prince is one of the most notable ones, and the basic teaching of it came to be that Christians had indwelling demons that needed to be cast out, and so that is the teaching that is perpetuated throughout the decades of teaching that deliverance is the children's bread. We know that that particular they're referring to the Samaritan woman, but that particular verbiage is not in scripture and it's not even what that means either. But at any rate, the teaching goes is that Christians need to have indwelling demons cast out and that can come about or be viewed as generational curses, that you have ancestors that have committed sins and they've allowed a demon to attach to the bloodline and so that has to be cast out. There are some people, even such as Derek Prince and others that would teach that demons could come into the womb. Frank Hammond was another popular one Pigs in the Parlor a very well-known book in the deliverance movement that's passed around and looked upon as something that's valuable in its knowledge, but a lot of it's anecdotal and obviously extra biblical in what they're doing. But essentially there's a demon usually tied to different things, whether it's types of sins, works of the flesh that are really labeled in scripture as works of the flesh and sin. They will tie a demon to them.
Speaker 2:And so now we have these new and upcoming deliverance ministers that have come from the 90s up into the 2000s and such, and with the digital technology it is rampant. So now we're seeing people post mass deliverances online. We're seeing that people are claiming that they have demons cast out of them by these people and they're being filmed. And these people are talking to alleged demons and professing Christians. I mean, that's the main driving point that when I talk about this is that we have to keep that in mind. They're not talking about ministering to unbelievers, they're talking to professing Christians that are claiming they have indwelling demons. And then you get into this whole thing of they say well, we don't believe that Christians are possessed, but they can have indwelling demons, and so playing word semantics with that which what they show online looks like possession to me, based on what the scripture shows, with indwelling demons talking out of a believer. So that is the basic premise of deliverance ministry, and so it's really helpful Go back to scripture and see what that says and to see where our spiritual battle is as far as Christians.
Speaker 2:Is our battle with a demonic inward or is it outward? Is the gospel good news? As far as we know, it's good news. Is it good news in the sufficiency of what Christ did on the cross to deliver us, and does that include from indwelling demonic possession? I think it's possession. Quite frankly, I don't see how you cannot say that it's possession when you have video clips of people alleging that demons are talking out of them. So basically, that's what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the whole idea of deliverance ministry really irritates me, mostly because, like you said, they aim it at Christians. I was actually talking to my husband about this a few days ago. I don't think I'd have a real problem with deliverance ministry if it was aimed at non-believers, because perhaps they could use that. But as a believer who claims to have asked Jesus into your heart, how on earth can you have a demonic presence inside when we're constantly told that the Holy Spirit will fill you up? The Bible says that he is the living water. You will never thirst again. He fills you up. There's no room for anything else or anyone else. So how on earth can you have a demon inside of you if you have Jesus in you? And I absolutely agree with you when I've seen some of these videos, or even heard some of these, because a lot of times I listen to the audio version. But it's demonic possession, hate mail, come this way, whatever, but that's what it is.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I don't like it at all and I know people who are about this and I. A lot of times they don't. Those in this ministry don't like to discuss it. They just write you off as what I know. You've been called some things. What have people in this ministry said about you when you've tried to bring awareness?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and let me just say this this is coming from someone who was involved in this type of teaching and belief system and practice, so I did espouse to this type of teaching when I was in this. I have been called numerous things. I mean, and it's not surprising, and you're absolutely right, there are people that when you try to engage in conversation they don't typically want to engage and if they do, it's very much ad hominem attacks, calling names. I have been told I am not saved. I have been told I don't have the Holy Spirit. I have been told I'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit, that I have turned my back on the Holy Spirit, that I don't know God. So those things can be hurtful. I'm not a robot, I'm certainly not the Tin man. I do have a heart and so those things can be hurtful. But that still doesn't change the fact that we must go back to Scripture. I can't be ruled by my emotions in that, any more than I would suggest that people be ruled by their emotions or their personal experiences in deliverance ministry. It really goes back to what Scripture has to say, and so that has to be the final authority, and I believe that Scripture is sufficient in showing us that Christians cannot have indwelling demons. Now, that does not negate the fact that Satan exists. That does not negate the fact that demons are real and it does not negate the fact that Satan exists. That does not negate the fact that demons are real and it does not negate the fact that we engage in spiritual warfare.
Speaker 2:The question is, what does that spiritual warfare look like for the born-again believer? And I don't believe that it's good news to tell a Christian that they can have indwelling demons. Then what have they been delivered from? Colossians 1.13 tells us Where's the hope? Yeah, there's no hope.
Speaker 2:In that, I mean Colossians 1 tells us that we have been delivered. Believers have been delivered from the domain of darkness and we've been transferred into the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, and so that is the foundation, pointing back to the gospel, and I believe that the gospel is sufficient to deliver people from demonic possession. It is the power of God unto salvation, and salvation is deliverance on various levels, and one of the levels is that we have been delivered from the powers of darkness. We're no longer children of wrath, we're no longer children of disobedience and we're no longer children of darkness, but we've been brought into light, and that light is the light of Christ, and so that is our hope. And from there, as believers, we can learn what biblical spiritual warfare looks like and how we engage when we believe that there could be potential demonic attacks or temptation that is demonically inspired. Scripture tells us how to deal with these things, so that is comforting to us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, if you're going to try to add to what Jesus did, then what's the point in asking him into your heart? Clearly there's no reason for it. You're still doomed. It makes no sense to me. Well, I listen to a lot of your podcasts the Love Six Scribe, like I mentioned and I also listen to a lot of Doreen Virtue and Justin Peters and you all have talked a lot about the Deliverance Ministry and through that I have learned various names and buzzwords. They aren't taking the deep dive like I am.
Speaker 1:What are some of the names of people who are really pushing this now or really into it? And that way they know to be aware or, you know, to keep their eyes open. Because I had heard about Derek Prince before because a family member had sent me some of his stuff, so I kind of started listening to it, but I didn't listen to it too much. And then I started listening to your stuff and then Derek Prince kept coming up. I was like ooh, it's like no wonder it kind of feels off when I listened to it and that. So I stopped immediately. But there's a lot of people out there who don't know who is involved in this and we need to help them steer clear. So is there anyone, any names that you can give us of people who are doing deliverance ministry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Obviously I can't be exhaustive in my list, but some of the ones that are more popular now there is Alexander Pagani.
Speaker 2:He espouses to be a general in the deliverance movement so he's written several books on it and espouses to be an apostle as well. So he's one. Isaiah Saldivar, mike Signorelli, vlad Savchuk, daniel Adams, jenny Weaver, richard Lorenzo Jr, john Ramirez. There's Bob Larson. Now Bob Larson is much older, he's been around for years. Derrick Prince and others I mean they are held up as like generals in the deliverance movement, but people they're kind of like sacred cows, I think, because people don't like when you touch them and you start saying things about them. John Eckhart is another one that he espouses to be an apostle and very much New Apostolic Reformation. He is recognized as a pioneer in the New Apostolic Reformation. But you'll hear some people like Mike Signorelli and others, who will give homage to John Eckhart because they'll say that in the 90s he was doing and pioneering a lot of the deliverance movement and so you'll hear and find he has books to prayers that route demons, for example. John Eckhart wrote that. So he has these different prayer books that you can use on different subjects but big on the deliverance. So there's numerous ones out there and they all look very similar in their practices and they tell about removing objects from your home that could be attracting demons and cleansing your home, things like that. Jennifer LeClaire is another one. She's really big on the deliverance with the Jezebel spirit. I don't have a book she's written about the Jezebel spirit, but a lot of these people even the leader I was under they dabble in and talk about deliverance. So this is something that it's like.
Speaker 2:I said it's growing in popularity. They view that as a positive thing that God is giving them favor in that. I honestly view it as this is just deception. That's growing further and further, as Scripture tells us it will. That people will just not listen to sound teaching. They will have itching ears, and so they want to hear about these things because they're sensational.
Speaker 2:We like to think about that. There's an appeal that we all have towards the supernatural, and so when we think that someone has having demons cast out of them and all this power and authority is being exerted, then that's appealing. These books are appealing to people and, quite frankly, these people that are writing these books know that they sell well, and so this type of stuff is pushed and perpetuated because it will grab people's attention and it will cause them to bless others financially that are writing about this and perpetuating these teachings, so it is widespread. I'm sure that there are lots of other people that I'm not thinking of, but those are some of the main ones. Oh yes, there you go. Yep, catherine Crick is a big one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I watched a video that Justin Peters put out of her trying to help a young girl walk who is I think she's paraplegic. Oh man, I couldn't watch that video. Just hearing it alone was breaking my heart. Watching it, I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2:It's pretty angering. I mean, I've even seen her trying to cast a demon of autism out. Greg Locke is another one. Now he has been influenced by Alexander Pagani.
Speaker 1:I followed him for a very short time. I don't remember how I found him, but I was following him on Instagram or whatever, and God's been good to me, giving me discernment about certain people throughout my life where they just rub me wrong, they make me uncomfortable for some reason and I just, whatever reason.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I just whatever. That's why I never really got into Stephen Furtick or Joel Osteen. And Greg Locke was another one where I was like this guy's a little too nuts for me so I just stopped following him. And then he started coming up in your videos.
Speaker 2:It's like ah, that's why, yeah, he's been very much influenced by Pagani and even his deliverance manual he has for his church. Global Vision was based on Pagani's book when you look at it, because they talk about casting demons out of body parts and different things, and that's coming from Pagani, which he's not the originator of that. That's even New Age type of teaching and others have talked about that. Jenny Penn Lewis, I think, is her name, from the Welsh revival with Evan Roberts. She wrote a book about the war on the saints and even in that book in the early 1900s I have a digital copy of that she talks about casting demons out of body parts and things. So this is not an old teaching but at the same time it's not new in the sense that they're coming up with something now.
Speaker 2:This is something that's been around for decades and even spanning back into the early 1900s, but really it started growing in momentum in the 1960s with some of the ones that we mentioned earlier, and it just continues to grow, unfortunately, and people just are not being biblically discipled as far as the gospel, sanctification and that taking accountability for sin, realizing that you can't blame a demon for everything that happens, or just because your ancestors sin doesn't mean that you could repent on their behalf. We're all responsible for our own personal sin, and again, scripture tells us this. But yeah, it's growing, unfortunately. And then there's more young people that are starting to grab a hold of this too, because they're so influential. They're always they're so influenced by these people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very emotion driven.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Young people are not always in tune with their emotions, so, yeah, I could see why they'd be sucked in pretty quickly. So there's a few things that you mentioned that I wanted to talk about. So you first mentioned about that. There's a lot of NAR weaving into all this stuff and I actually did a two-part episode to start off this season about NAR with one of my friends who didn't know anything about it and she was shocked when she found out everything and we had a nice discussion on that, and then one of my other guests. We also talked about generational curses and, yeah, all that stuff just weaves right into this whole deliverance ministry and what I was talking about with my guest on the one with generational curses, richard Walsh.
Speaker 1:Him and I were talking about how people don't take ownership of their own mistakes. It's someone else's fault. Go back to the Bible days, go back to Genesis. What did they do when they bit into the apple? They blamed each other. They didn't say you know what? God, I did this, this is my fault, I should have not taken the apple. I should have stopped her from taking the apple. Whatever, they just blame, blame, blame, and that's what we've been doing as people ever since, and the deliverance ministry, I feel, gives people an outlet to continue to do that.
Speaker 1:To say that there's a generational curse I don't think is right. Perhaps there's things that generationally you've learned from behaviors and you continued, but you can stop that. That is a choice you can make through the power of Jesus Christ, asking him into your heart and letting him change you from the inside out and fill you up. You will be able to work through that. It's not a generational curse.
Speaker 1:I can't believe that there's people who are saying that you can be cursed from the womb. Aside from the fact that we were cursed from the womb because of Adam and Eve, I don't believe in anything other than that that's. The only curse we have is sin. This whole ministry just irritates me for so many reasons, and the main one is is that nobody is taking ownership of their own mistakes, of their own choices, of their own desires and thoughts and everything. You don't have demons making you do these things. You have sinful lusts and desires and you're choosing to make these choices Because at the same time, like you said, they don't say that Christians can be possessed. But if you're saying a demon is in you and it's doing these things, then obviously you're being possessed because the demon is making you do these things. Either that or you need to own up to your own choices.
Speaker 2:Right. Also, this whole compartmentalization that goes on in this movement, which I believe that it stems from a word of faith, belief system of the tripart being. And they'll say that the Holy Spirit resides in your spirit, and so that means that the demon can reside in your flesh or your soul. But scripture doesn't support that and it doesn't teach that. And if anything, we are told in Scripture first of all that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, according to 1 Corinthians 6. Now they'll try to refute that as well, but Scripture says what it says, and so the body is the temple for the Holy Spirit, as for believers in Christ to indwell, and we are to worship God with every part of our being. So there's nothing in Scripture that says that, oh, the Holy Spirit just compartmentalizes and he stays in the Spirit but doesn't reside in your flesh or your soul, and then that's where demons can enter. And honestly, I think that that diminishes the power of the Holy Spirit, because you're basically saying that the third person of the Trinity is going to seal a person for the day of redemption, according to the book of Ephesians, but then he's going to allow a demon to indwell that blood-bought, born-again believer. How is that exalting the power of the Holy Spirit and how is that good news to that believer when you're telling them?
Speaker 2:Isaiah Saldivar says. He tells them oh, just like you get an oil change every three to four thousand miles, you'd probably need to go in every few months and get the critters cast out of you. That's not good news and that's not biblical either. That's not teaching people how to deal with sin. To what your point?
Speaker 2:And then also you have people that deal with physical ailments in their bodies that a lot of times are not brought about because of sin that they've committed. We just live in a fallen world and so in God's sovereignty, he has permitted those things to happen. We may not understand why, but ultimately it's for his glory and many times for our sanctification and our good. But yet they're going to ascribe a demon to all of those things and to say, well, you know you need to get a demon cast out of you, but what does that do to a person when they believe that and they don't see the results that they're asking for? There's no logical or even biblical conclusion to this that makes sense. That really brings freedom in Christ for people. If anything, it just promotes spiritual bondage.
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Speaker 1:Yeah, it's heartbreaking to see when they talk about it to kids who have disabilities. I mean casting a demon out because of autism, my goodness. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe my eldest child is autistic on the very high end of it. She's functioning, but I would never even consider it that way. Down syndrome I would never consider that it's a sin problem. Maybe God wants to be glorified through that. Maybe they will be healed, Maybe they won't. Maybe there is a reason for that. Nick Vujicic, I don't know if you know who he is, but he has no arms and legs. That's not because of sin. God's working through him powerfully. So I just I don't understand why more people haven't realized how wrong this is. Everything about it just screams wrong and I just I don't know why there's so many people who are really into it, other than it's emotionally based. We're supposed to be free. When you ask Jesus into your heart, you are set free and you are free. Indeed, you don't have to go back for an oil change and get reef. Otherwise is the point. Why did he come to earth and die on the cross for our sins? If we have to keep going back and getting checked up it? I feel like jesus would be up in heaven right now as one of those memes um, this guy who's got scowl on his face and he's got his arms folded and he's just sitting there like really, I feel like that's Jesus right now, looking at everyone going. Really, I died for this. I mean, I feel like it's really close to new age with what they do.
Speaker 1:I believe you've said it and a few other people I've listened to have said that they emphasize a lot on the demonic rather than on the gospel. They don't focus on the gospel at all. You've mentioned it before. Through all the videos, you've shown that they never really present the gospel. They say people are going to be freed, healed and we're going to cast out the demons, but they don't present the gospel, which is literally the only way you are going to be freed, and they don't do it. And it's so demonic it's bordering on new age or that it could easily suck you into it. I mean, I used to really be into exorcist podcasts, listening to people who have been exorcised or whatever. I don't know why, but I had this quick stint in 2021 where I was listening to this podcast of different people's exorcisms and I think that's how I found Greg Locke, because he was on a podcast or something talking. I think he's the one who says he's a demon slayer. I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, asaldivar and some of the others, they yeah, that's a term that they've given themselves. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, it was probably him. But they talked a lot about how different objects around the house or whatever could be demon, could be attached to that or whatever. And I bought into that so much that my husband, who grew up atheist his mom did a lot of witchcraft type of stuff. His mom was really into that and he said he had some scary moments in his life where he saw demonic stuff because he was an atheist for a good chunk of his life. And then he told me about this one story and he had this childhood stuffed animal that was attached to that situation or whatever. And I told him you got to get rid of it. Just stick it outside. I don't want it in the house. I was just whatever. It's still outside, it's next to an angel statue we have, but anyone can get sucked into this from any angle and it can easily go down into a very dark pit and it just makes me sad.
Speaker 2:Sucked into that too. I got sucked in the same thing, even with thinking that I was, at the time before we had our second child, had a three-year-old that I'm dealing with and there's the terrible twos and terrible threes, and her twos were much better than her threes were. But it's dealing with young children and if you want to think about first of all if children are sinful, I mean, raise a toddler and you even an infant and you'll find out pretty quickly. But there were things that she was doing that I was attributing to the fact of certain toys that she had and such that were that I thought were demonically inspired.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:And it's ridiculous because it's this whole, it's superstitious and it's not thinking of. Ok, I'm dealing with a three year old that is having temper tantrums, that needs to be disciplined properly and we need to go back to scripture about how to handle these things and to love her and be patient and work through it, but instead there is this immediately almost like knee-jerk reaction when you have these belief systems of what has to be a demon yeah, I've got to bind this up and I've got to bind up Satan and I've got to rebuke Satan and I've got to get rid of these objects. And there's a difference. Let me just say this there's a difference between someone that is a professing Christian that are still messing around with Ouija boards, for example. They don't understand that we should not have those things in our homes because of what scripture tells us about. This is a form of divination. We should not have these things and we need to understand why that's important not to have those things and just get rid of them. It's an entirely different thing when it's a ritualistic type thing that goes on and that we have to bind Satan and we have to get rid of this object and we have to do these certain things in order to break the demonic stronghold, because demons could be attached to that object. There's nothing in scripture that tells us that.
Speaker 2:First of all and secondly, we need to focus more on, as believers, again, proper biblical discipleship, what sanctification looks like If there's something that is worse, if it's sinning against our own conscience, and what scripture says that we need to remove those things, not out of fear that we're going to let a demon in to our home or to our object, an object or anything like that, or even to us, but it's because we want to obey what God's word says, because we are his children and in that we find freedom because of what Christ has done, and so there's a big difference in that than what the deliverance ministry pushes, because essentially what they're doing is they're shackling people to what I believe looks more like pharisaical, man-made tradition than what scripture says, and essentially they're getting these people to look to them as their savior. If I just go to this conference, if I just go to this person and get them, them cast the demon out of me, then I'll be free until when you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Again, it just yeah it just does not go back to true freedom in Christ and understanding what that looks like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I I completely agree the leaders. From all the videos I've listened to and watched, they just seem like they have a savior complex and whether they started out that way or not, who knows, I think it came with time and all the you know accolades and everybody praising them. You know you get a swelled head. You got to keep that humility. You got to remember who gave you. Whatever gifts you have, it's God. Give him the glory for what you're doing and I don't think you can easily fall into the trap of getting the swell head. But yeah, it's such a touchy subject but it's one that absolutely needs to be talked about. But they just shut you down. They don't want to hear what you have to say. They don't care, you're just an unbeliever, you're not a true believer. They don't want to have a healthy discussion.
Speaker 1:I was talking about this with one of my other guests about how I was really into Joyce Meyer and my stepdad was trying to tell me she might want to be aware and I would shut him down immediately and be like, oh, you just don't like her because she's a woman and all this stuff. And after a while, the constant hearing him saying that every time I was listening to her. Eventually it started thinking about it, and then I heard other people talking about her on podcasts and then I my eyes started opening. And I guess that's what it takes is God needs to open their eyes. God needs to do the work. We can't do it. We're just going to beat our heads into a wall, I guess, because you're either in too deep or you're just getting into it and you don't know enough. So you're kind of like I don't want to write off the deliverance ministry quite yet because I don't know anything about it, but it's a toxic, toxic situation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely agree that it puts them in bondage and turns them into a pharisaical sort of thing I was going to say legalistic. And you're no longer free when you're in the deliverance ministry because you've got to go get your checkups. Something bad happens in your life. You knee-jerk reaction. It's a demon. Instead of taking a situation and saying you know what, what am I doing wrong in this and how could I potentially fix this Again, it goes back to nobody wants to take ownership for their mistakes, for the choices they've made in their past. Perhaps 30 years down the line you're reaping what you sowed back when you were a teenager. I mean that's not a demon, that's just delayed reaping what you sowed back when you were a teenager. I mean that's not a demon, that's just delayed reaping what you've sown. I mean I, I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And then, on top of that, what's really sad too, is I've actually heard from women that have reached out that were not part of this movement, and their mothers and some of them have I've shared, shared that their adult children are now estranged from them because they may have grown up in their home, that it was a biblically solid upbringing, and then they get introduced to the deliverance movement and they now turn against their parents or their mother in particular, because the leader has told them your mother has a generational curse that she's led into your family.
Speaker 2:You need to break communication with her. You need to get rid of any objects she's given you, because that's why you're dealing with different health problems in your life. You don't let pictures in the house, don't let her see your grandchildren. Cut off communication because she's quenching the Holy Spirit. I mean I've had these women reach out to me through email, several of them and their mothers, and they're telling me similar stories and they're losing. It's damaging families. I mean this movement is damaging families, it's damaging marriages, it's damaging relationships with others, it's a devastating belief system and it's not bringing proper biblical division.
Speaker 1:It's splitting up families to where it's demonizing the opponents to it and they're wanting to rise up and say you know, you're wrong. All these things. What do you have to say to them, in love, as a rebuttal to their mean comments there? You're not a believer. What would you say?
Speaker 2:to them Say you know, I don't get angry with those people. I'm learning more and more to be gentle and patient, to have self-control. So I'm learning how to pick my battles. But ultimately it goes back to being secure in Christ, to going back to his gospel and to remind myself from what I've been saved, what I've been delivered, and that the truth of his word is what matters the most. And so that's what I go back to, and even asking questions based on scripture.
Speaker 2:And there's some times that I know that that conversation is not going to be fruitful and I don't pursue it any further because all it's doing is that if that person's not willing to be receptive they're just name calling, just attacking or being argumentative I'm not going to engage in that conversation any longer. I'm willing to engage in a conversation with someone that doesn't agree with me, and I've done that numerous times. But I've also been down this path a lot too in this past several years of recognizing when it's just not fruitful, and so I want to be accountable for my own actions and pray for that person. Bless them, scripture tells us. Bless them. Do not curse those who would mistreat you or persecute you. Let the Lord fight those battles for us. I don't want to seek vengeance. Vengeance is the Lord's.
Speaker 2:And so there are things I'm reminded of in scripture, and that was not my initial response to things when I was even in this movement.
Speaker 2:I mean, I was very much prideful and arrogant and very more forceful with my words and would be combative.
Speaker 2:And what I've learned now is that is not how we are to conduct ourselves as believers in Christ.
Speaker 2:That's what the world tells us to do, and even those in this movement would act in such a way that they think that that's okay when scripture tells us to do the opposite of that.
Speaker 2:And so that's what I've been learning from that and wanting to engage in conversations, and then if the person doesn't want to engage in it, okay, I'm not going to be forceful about it, but always leaving that door open for communication if they're willing and wanting to talk about it. But we're going to go back to what scripture has to say on the matter. So I don't hold any ill will towards those people, because I remember having that type of mindset and so I always want to keep in mind from where I had fallen and remember from what God spared me from and delivered me from, because he forgave me of much, and so I would want the same for those people too. And so always willing to have conversations, but always using wisdom at the same time and recognizing, you know, this conversation is not going anywhere, this is not fruitful. What, would you say, is the best way for them to get out of it?
Speaker 1:Because maybe they're in too deep, like you were in too deep. How did you get out? How would they get out of it now that they know the truth?
Speaker 2:Well, I would suggest, with the story that I have, it's a little bit different in that it wasn't even just the deliverance movement that I came out of. It was basically questioning the leader is what it started with of the teachings and such, and from there ultimately being faced with a 30-day timeframe to make a decision to submit the apostle into a prophet of his choosing, to evaluate me and find out what was spiritually wrong with me because of what I was questioning, and so my family and I decided to leave. But as far as this is concerned, I mean from there, I started questioning a lot of things and looking into it and going back to scripture, and that's what I would tell someone that's really starting to question is you need to go back to scripture and you need to run from these deliverance ministries as far away as possible that you can get and find a local church. Begin to get in the word, read the Bible, start looking at these things and using the scripture as your final authority. Your personal experience, no matter how real it is, no matter how real it is, your personal experience is not the standard of truth. It is not the foundation of truth. The scripture is the final authority for your truth. Your experience does not interpret scripture. Scripture interprets scripture and scripture is used to discern properly and to test our experiences to see if they agree with scripture. So that's what we have to come back to, and to test our experiences to see if they agree with Scripture. So that's what we have to come back to. Anybody who's saying I realize now that I'm in error and not to be in this, then you need to get out of that as quickly as you possibly can and go back to the gospel. Make sure that you have a proper understanding of the gospel, that you've heard the gospel, because there are some people in this that sadly, that's.
Speaker 2:Another place of contention with people is that I have presented the gospel at times and I've had people tell me that is not the gospel. Gospel is crucifying your flesh and that you're surrendering all. And listen, scripture talks about that. God wants us to surrender to him. We are to die to our flesh. Those are biblical things, but that is not the gospel. It's not. That is based on what we can do, but we are to rest in the sufficiency of Christ's finished work on the cross and that is the gospel that he died for our sins, he was buried, he rose again in three days and he lives forever now and he sits at the right hand of the Father and he is coming back. He is going to come back and so we rest in that. So we must get back to the foundation of the gospel. If that foundation is faulty, then everything else will fall apart.
Speaker 2:So run from these places, run from these leaders, find a solid church, go back to the gospel as your foundation and take it a day at a time, learning what the scripture says by God's grace and his mercy. You don't have to have everything figured out all in one time, and that's not going to happen. You're going to have to rest in the grace of God and take it a day at a time. If you need to find proper biblical counseling, do that. Not everybody has to do that, but some people need that because some people are being told extremely damaging things coming at when they're in this deliverance movement and that can be devastating for people and it can take a long time to filter through those things and to figure out what is truth, what is error. And there has to be grace in that and knowing you're not going to have everything figured out at once. But the first step is you need to get out of this stuff, get away from it, and then saturate yourself in the Word of God and in the gospel.
Speaker 1:Amen. Nothing else to say. Guys, this is a dangerous ministry to be involved in. If you're involved and you are starting to feel convicted, get out. Like Dawn said, get out, get in your Bible. It's the best thing you can do. And if you do believe in these things and you want to talk to either one of us about this, take a breath before you do it and let's have an actual, healthy conversation, because those are the only ones worth having. So thank you, Dawn, so much for coming on and talking to me today. I've enjoyed this conversation despite the sadness of the conversation topic, but it's definitely needed, and I know there's a lot more indie podcasters like myself who are also starting to talk about various issues that have infiltrated the Christian faith, so I'm excited to see it.
Speaker 2:So thank you. I'm glad that you're having this conversation, and I think that conversations like this are very important to have, so thank you for doing it.
